10 mo GP and goats

Southern by choice

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I have a feeling your girl will do fine. :)
I commend you for your thoughtfulness and diligence in taking your girl onto your farm. Taking her in to acclimate her, supervising and being watchful are all the things RIGHT!
:thumbsup

As far as the nesting boxes...:lol: and :barnie

Pyrs as well as most LGD's LOVE eggs! They lay in wait to snatch the next fresh laid egg. o_O
Best way to solve that really is to make sure boxes are high and also put a barrier up. I will see if I can get some pics for you.
We just moved our chickens because we downsized from 250 chickens to under 100. We moved the nesting boxes but haven't had time to put up the "block" yet... so needless to say, the 3 4 month old pyr pups sneak in and grab them. I have to be diligent and get out several times a day to gather or by nightfal I won't have ANY left. The adult dogs do the same.

LGD breeds really are not like other dogs, I often say they are their own "Species". They are not obedience dogs and never will be. People will try pepper, sprays etc to discourage the egg seeking but I have never seen anything work. I am a retired trainer (partially out of retirement having LGD's LOL) and I can tell you they are not like a GSD or other "trainable" dogs.

Personally, I love this about the breeds. Just remember if you have venison prepared and your LGD in the house make sure you put the food up on the refrigerator if you need to leave the room for any reason. :D

We appreciate how much our dogs do so we give grace. LOL
Some of our dogs...
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/remember-never-bond-with-a-lgd.28258/
couldn't find the thread but thought you might get a chuckle out of this...
Copy of SAM_0372.JPG


So lets see a pic of your new girl! Oh yeah, and your goats! :D
 

mzgarden

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All:again thanks. I keep saying it but I truly am so glad to have someone to share with and guide us. I'll get pics today.
So, here's the update.
Last night, we let Eleanor and Katie (goats) out of the pen into the pasture. We sat on benches and the girls munched on left over cucumber vines we have piled up in the fire pit, happy as could be. Daisy sat, laid down and watched. Occasionally she would circle one way around the fire pit and the goats would dance around, but came right back to munching. It was a bit of a funny dance to watch. Eventually Daisy laid down where she could watch them. We felt like this was big progress.
This morning after everyone was fed and we played with Daisy, we put the goats on leads and tied them to fence posts next to each other. DH sat between the goats and I walked Daisy to them on a lead. Daisy was good, the goats were horrible. They were terrified - flipped themselves upside down, practically strangled themselves trying to run. Daisy picked which one to investigate first -Eleanor who has been the most curious about Daisy. and I just went along with her. Nose in goat ears, nose in goat butt, thorough going over while the goat screamed and jerked around. Daisy put her big old paw up on Eleanor's back - not pressing down or jumping on her - just paw up. She put her mouth on the goats back - not biting and not aggressive, not really sure what she was doing. The goat never stood up for herself and Daisy did not lay down or take any kind of submission posture. Not sure what that means. Then Daisy decided to investigate Katie. Katie is our herd queen by nature. She too freaked out, tried to run, flipped herself over and DH was trying to steady her. Daisy pretty much did the same with Katie - nosing, pawing, mouthing. Goats were terrified and Daisy seemed relaxed - interested but relaxed. After about 20 minutes, Daisy turned and wandered off and we put the goats into their pen. They ran up to the 2nd level of their 'goat palace' and whined. About 30 minutes later, I walked Daisy (no leash) into their pen to drop off some more alfalfa for them - they danced around and she just looked at them and followed me back out. I gave no direction to Daisy and she didn't need any:clap - Goaties on the other hand could use some chill pills. :rolleyes:

We are moving the nesting boxes to make it more difficult for her to get to them - we'll see how that works. Daisy does seem to enjoy walking through the flock of chickens and watching them scatter - but she doesn't chase them at all. She just looks at us with that Pyr smile and walks on.

Whew! We are learning a lot and appreciate all the pointers. Keep it coming. We are on day 7 .....
 

Southern by choice

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Ok so maybe I should have been more clear. That is what happens when I am trying to reply quickly and do too many things at once. :hideYou really don't want the goats that stressed as you can see the stress also triggered an undesirable reaction from Daisy. No putting mouth on goats. The paw, generally wouldn't be acceptable either however it is my suspicion she may have been trying to calm the goats, as if to say "settle down- it's ok". I think it was more confusion for the dog. Flailing goats is never good. Good that Daisy eventually walked off.:) If Daisy is stable and not chasing, mouthing, or grabbing the goats then leave them all to work it out. It could be months, weeks, days before the goats accept the dog. That is ok.

A few years back we had brought some Kikos in, these does had only ever been around herding dogs. The dogs were released and sent out to bring the goats home from out in the pastures. Needless to say the kiko does were terrified of dogs, they would run, get scared and take off. One doe was flat out mean-huge horns and hated the dogs! The dogs stayed with them and would desperately try to gain acceptance. The other does came around but the one, UGH! She would take those horns and really bail the dogs. Two of the does kidded the following Feb (we got the does in June) both does allowed the dogs to be right there and clean the kids and the dogs guarded those kids with everything they had. The dogs at the time were 11 months and 15months.
March the big doe with the big horns that hated the dogs kidded... overnight- we missed everything but the next am we were fortunate enough to get pics of "Alana" FINALLY accepting the dogs as she released her kids to them, she gave her blessing. Sounds goofy I know but it really choked me up, tears and all. I watched my pyr and my Toli so gently submit and she reached over and nose touched the male pyr, after that there were never any issues. The female Toli would crawl on her belly to the kids to not upset them. Alana would allow her kids to go to the dogs, sleep with the dogs, and she never had a care about her kids being safe.

The point in that was to let you know it can take time. Our dogs were very young yet we know them and trust them. Most wouldn't dream of that young of a LGD to be alone with goats during kidding. Knowing your dog/s and trusting them is really important. I have pics that are on a thread here but they are from before BYH went to a new format so I can't retrieve them. I have pictures of this event on my website...
http://www.winginitfarms.com/apps/photos/
Click on Livestock Guardians on the Job (in the photos section) and it is the 7th pic in the slideshow.

I apologize for not laying out how to better do the lead intro. It is something you want to do for about 30 seconds or more but without traumatizing the goats. I know- Now I tell you this.

Cannot wait for pics! :)
 

mzgarden

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Thanks for the clarification. That approach for 30 seconds will make it much more palatable for everyone. We are not in a hurry and we are ok waiting weeks or months for calm and stable acceptance as long as no bad behaviors crop up.

I hope I got the pictures loaded right. One is Daisy listening at the front door of the barn - barn kitties are in the driveway sunning themselves. The other is of Eleanor and Katie in their goat palace, which is a separate 60x100' fenced pen within the 4 fenced acres Daisy has the run of.

Keep the feedback coming as we clearly have much to learn. BTW, we have two mottoes on the Homestead:
1) It's all about the animals :ya and 2) We do this to ourselves, you know.:th


Daisy listening at the barn door.jpg Goats in their penthouse.jpg
 

Southern by choice

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Love the pics! She has such an inquisitive expression!
Your goats are adorable!

Like your motto's!
I think my new motto should be "what were we thinking?" :lol:
Life revolves around our goats now. Seriously.:\

So... you want to come build a palace for my goats?

My female pyr would make that porch her throne! She perches herself on the tallest spool in the field so she can supervise everything.
Sad when people in the community only know you by your Pyr that sits on her throne and "owns" the farm. LOL
 

mzgarden

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Here's a specific question -- Daisy has decided to camp out in the barn during the day instead of being in the pasture where the goats/chickens/pigs are. For a visual, think of a long rectangle starting at one short end: road, house, driveway, shop, barn, pastures.
We can put her out in the pastures and close the gates to keep her out of the barn during the day but then she mostly lays at one of the gates watching for us to come back. She has two shelters, her own food and water in the pastures. The barn is where the chicken nesting boxes and food are and where the goats and half the chickens spend the night (other half are in a tractor/coop outside). At night, we leave the back barn door and pasture gates open for her. Is this a worrisome sign?
 

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no, for the most part LGD's are nocturnal animals. It is at night (generally speaking) where there is predator issues so not unusual for her to snooze in the daytime. Not sure what region you are in but today and yesterday it was really hot... dogs all wrer in the goathouse or the chicken house snoozing away only too wake and patrol when needed. Of course no matter what they can hear and suddenly they are just there and you never see them coming or hear them coming. They are good at that. She is also still a pup and still learning how to be a guardian.

If you walk by a gate or she sees you and hops up (for attention) you can either say "hi girl" or ignore her altogether.
At this age we still make sure our pups/dogs get am and pm rubs and loves from us. Pups we have a whole program that we do to help with getting their energy out.

If whenever you take her out to get family time and you go to put her back in the field tell her "OK, time for you to go to work".
Right now I would limit how much time you spend walking with her and even the amount of attention. She will learn the goats are first priority.

Observing behaviors is important she may be a watcher and not a patroller. We have a watcher paired with a patroller for all our teams. It is the ideal pairing. I love the watchers. LOL
Patrollers generally will run out and run the fenceline for the whole property/field checkng that all is in order.
This starts very early. Our pups will do this by 8 weeks- you can tell really early who the patrollers are. They are usually more playful, always wanting to play. On the go, find ways to amuse themselves. Watchers find a spot to see everything and get to a place for the best view, many will find the highest spot- a hill, mound, manure pile, spool, platform etc. They sit and watch (often looks like they are lazy and doing nothing LOL) they generally stay close to the herd or within the vicinity. The list goes on. Most watchers are dominant.
 

mzgarden

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Thanks, that's helpful. We are no longer walking her on her lead at all and no need for perimeter walks as she appears to understand the fence lines. We generally make specific time to play with just her - she's selected a few items to play with - some long sticks she has found and believe it or not a long skinny piece of carpeting we had used as weed block in a garden. That's a funny sight to see her dragging and swinging that carpeting around. We will continue to put her in the pastures during the day and opening everything up at night, after the animals have been put to bed. She does seem to gravitate to following us when we are out working during the day, so we'll have to be extra-vigilant about when and what kind of attention we pay to her when it's not play time. I don't want to make this harder on her just because we're newbies. Again, thanks (I'm repeating myself, I know).
 

babsbag

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My dogs live with the goats 24/7 but they ALWAYS come to see what I am doing and to say HI. They also will lay by the gate if I am working nearby; at least for a little while. If they don't come to say HI, it is either REALLY HOT, or they are doing something exciting like stalking a lizard, or worse yet, a new chicken. They much prefer human contact over goats but they don't complain when I leave.

Goats can sure be drama queens. :)
 

mzgarden

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So, not such a good day today. Daisy ran up to the goat pen barking several times today and chased chickens into a barn stall. Cornered one & had it in her mouth. She didn't kill it, but she did not want to give it up either. Took me 30 minutes to round up the chickens and coax/catch and put them into their stall for the night. She scared them badly enough they did not want to come into the barn. Earlier in the day we had been playing with her carpet (she has several carpet squares and a long piece of carpeting she plays with). When we were done, I told her she was a good girl and went to pat her head like I usually do and she closed her mouth around my wrist.:oops: She didn't hurt me but I'll admit it scared me.

She's such a sweet dog. I really want this to work:fl.

We will try again tomorrow and hope for a better day.
 
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