Foundation choice(s) and cell size?

Have spent a LOT of time researching this and was almost to the point of going straight "foundationless," Then I decided to do a mixture. Then I came across this: http://goo.gl/QL4oql It's a shortened URL to a forum post on http://www.beesource.com/forums/index.php This will be exactly what I'll be doing in my hives to start. I hope my frames come out looking 1/2 as good as hers!

I use wooden frames with wax coated plastic foundation. I have gone with wired wax foundation and the darn stuff melted in the hive when it is 115 here. I have also gone with wax foundation for the comb honey, and it melted some too, but I love comb honey. If I have only a few frames of honey the extractor is too muck work so I will scrape and crush; can't do that with wired wax foundation.

My bees work too hard just to survive to ask them to make their own foundation. Our summers are long and hot and in a major drought right now so the less stress I can give them the better.

Also if you want to do drone trapping for mite control you will want some drone comb in place so they will use it for drones, then you take the comb out and freeze it, kill the drones, and kill the mites. Mites like brood so you want to encourage them to make some drone brood so you can sacrifice it.

I honestly believe that mite control is the secret to survival. I have lost more hives than I haven't and I have been resisting using chemicals for mites; I think that has to change. I recently read that the wild bees are pretty much gone and that swarms usually die within 12-18 months. The days of raising bees the way nature intended are in the past. Since the Varroa mite is here the game has changed.

Thank you. Those were a lot of the concerns I had. I did get some pollen patties to supplement, just in case. I have ten frames coated in wax, still need to order another ten, just wanted to check opinions first.
The guy I'm buying the bees from did say the queen is mated...does that mean the other bees know who she is already?
Would it be okay to have the first level with foundations and then go no foundation the second level and up or is that asking too much?

Babsbag..I do have some mite strips to treat with if needed. I will.read up more on the drone trapping, haven't made it that far in my studying.

To be honest I have never thought of going without foundation other than for comb honey. I want to give my bees the best shot at building up brood quickly and if that means giving them foundation then so be it. Not sure what the attraction or fear is; trust me, foundation size is the least of my worries.

As far as a mated queen, that means that she has taken her maiden flight and she is bred and ready to lay. Are you buy a package of bees, or a nuc? The packaged bees will not know their queen, but usually not a problem as they will get to know her while she is in her cage for a few day. If is a nuc, then yes, they know their queen.

I have been buying nucs the last few years and will probably do it again this year but I have had some growing concerns about getting bees that are coming off of the almond pollination contracts as I fear that they are being exposed to chemicals and not as strong as they should be. I would like to buy a package of the Varroa Sensitive Hygiene bees but I am having problems finding them close to home or someone that will ship.

As far as mite strips, make sure you read all the directions and pay close attention to the part regarding temperatures and when to use the strips and also what it will or will not do to the honey supers. Pretty much all of them will cause some brood die off and for some treatments it will be much worse if it is hot. I have zero experience with mite treatments other than powdered sugar and drone trapping; I have been reading, even bought some apigaurd, just afraid to use it.

I would recommend screened bottom boards if you haven't already decided to use them.

Alicia said:

Good to know. Never did get the hive set up...in the house right now. I keep hearing opinions on foundation or none. What do you guys think, what's best?

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It depends on your goals. Do you want comb honey? You can mix and match, some with foundation, some without. But drawing out comb does take a lot of energy for the bees to produce it.

I extract my honey, so I use foundation frames.

Alicia said:

The guy I'm buying the bees from did say the queen is mated...does that mean the other bees know who she is already?

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That means she has taken her flight and mated. She never again leaves the hive, unless they swarm.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but whether you use foundation or not, the bees will still have to draw out the comb... The (initial) primary reason for using foundation was to ensure that the comb was drawn straight and true from top to bottom and side to side in the frame (where we humans wanted it). It was also to try to eliminate the natural "sway" of the comb and eliminate the unwanted comb that the bees would draw all over the inside of the hive. Our (humans) way of trying to control nature and have everything nice and neat and tidy for us.

I have read (can't remember where - old timers kicking in ) that in a side by side test of bees provided foundation and bees provided empty frames, they both drew out the same amount of comb in the same amount of time. How fast they draw out comb is dependent on the nectar flow. I understand they produce the wax naturally whether they use it or not. The workers in a swarm are loaded with wax and ready to draw comb as soon as they establish where the new hive will be. They have the new hive up and operating in less than a week!

Then the cell pattern imprinted on the foundation was adjusted to make different size cells... The original foundation increased the size of the cells to 5.4mm+ in an effort to make the bees create larger bees in the belief that larger bees could carry more nectar and therefore would produce more honey. This essentially created bees 150% larger than they were in nature at that time. Now foundation comes with various cell sizes; smaller for brood, larger for drones, to (attempt to) force the bees to make the cell size we want, where we want, within the hive.

My primary concern is that I would like the brood centered on the frames with drone cells out to the sides and stores above the drones. By using only partial foundation, I can then easily cut out the bee created drone cells as part of my mite control and the tenants will rebuild new cells of whatever size they want. As the drones hatch and the bees back-fill those drone cells with honey, I can then cut out comb honey, or leave it for them for winter stores close to brood.

I'm just of the opinion that it will make the bees happier, make me happier, make mite control & the associated vectored diseases easier to manage/control, while hopefully staying treatment free, and be better off for both of us in the long term If it turns out that I still need to do mite treatments, hopefully it won't be as bad as some have to deal with. I don't want to have to buy new bees every year - packages or nucs.

Awesome post, Latestarter. You have been studying!

Everything you said jives with what I've been reading - maybe we're just reading the same stuff!

Latestarter said:

...I don't want to have to buy new bees every year - packages or nucs.

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I'll just add a footnote to this - if you don't want to buy every year (and neither do I!) then you can count on raising your own queens and nucs if you plan on sticking with it. Otherwise you'll be one of those folks that had bees for a while, then lost them.

Thanks Maggiesdad. I am starting slow with 2 hives (maybe 3 if I win the raffle next week for a 4 medium box langstroth hive fully equipped and ready to fill )
I hope to expand after the first year & beyond... but I don't want to bite off more than I can chew here... The expansion I intend to do via splits/nucs & queen rearing from "locally adapted" bees from my own hives and or from swarm captures of local/feral bees.

On a second note here, If I do happen to get lucky and win a hive (there are 12 to be "drawn") I believe instead of going with 2 deeps on each hive, I will set up a single deep with 2 mediums above for brood and then additional mediums above those as honey supers when the time comes. So I could potentially start with 2 hives and have 2 additional hives ready to go for splits or swarms