The Education of Ben

Southern by choice said:

I guess it depends on how you see grieving.
If I came to your house and bought a chicken would Jake or Ben know it?

Would they be frantic and upset that I bought the bird?

The nature of the LGD is to protect. Some are territorial bonders. Everything in the dogs territory is theirs and they own it and they protect it. However they do not cuddle nurture give commands etc like those that are herd bonders.



Not true. The patroller will go far from the herd etc that is what they do patrol and keep things from even coming in close. The watcher stays with. That is why teams are best. At night is when predators are most active. Patrollers are always on the move at night.

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I've seen many LGDs with herds of sheep and didn't see a one of them get upset when a sheep was sold or removed from the herd for slaughter...I'm guessing they weren't bonded with their herds? As those sheep were loaded into my truck, they were just watching and wagging their tails.

My sister used to breed GPs and she also had goats they guarded but I don't recall any of her dogs getting frantic when a goat left the farm on a truck.

If getting frantic when a sheep leaves the herd when it's sold or trucked away is the definition of bonding, I guess I've never seen a LGD actually bonded with a herd in my life, though I've seen many on guard in the fields where they and the sheep lived together.

And...yes, Ben and Jake would absolutely know you took one of their chickens and would be following you with that chicken until they came up against their boundary and could go no further. They follow me in that same way when I remove a chicken and they ain't a bit happy about it. They aren't anywhere near what I'd call "frantic" but they are not at ease and they are certainly on alert and following that bird.

Well I did not post that to argue with you.
I posted that because this forum and LGD posts are read by thousands of people that are not members.

I work with so many people and LGD's and it is something that can be misleading for many. I average 4 people a month that come to my farm so they can see the dogs with poultry and how they operate and teach many about the use of the LGD in regards to poultry.

It is completely different then a LGD that is a herd guardian.

Your references to never seeing a dog bonded based on the criteria is a bit troublesome. Perhaps you haven't seen a well bonded dog to it's herd. I don't know. I share that in many posts, not all LGD's bond with a herd but rather they are territorial and everything in their territory is theirs and they protect it. If it gets the job done that is what is important.

That is one of the biggies as far as consults go... we get a lot of questions in regard to this. Many are not sure of their dogs because they are not bonded. Breed of LGD makes a difference as well. Anatolians bond tighter with their goats than most other breeds. Sheep are far less bonding to any dog. Goats are more social and often do.

There is a difference between a dog that is protective and guards well and one that bonds. Chickens have no ability to bond with the dog. It is a mutual respect and takes mutual communication between the two.
It does make a difference. Chickens do not seek out the comfort or protection from the dog.

I think I'd have to differ with that last statement...chickens do and will seek the dogs for protection, IME.

You may know dogs, Southern, and I respect that and am grateful for your input in all ways, but I know chickens....they do actively seek out the dogs for protection here and I've seen it with my own eyes.

Not wanting to argue at all, that's not why I post here, but I still believe that these are not cookie cutter types of dogs that adhere to one standard of behavior for every situation or circumstance. Every circumstance and dog is unique within that frame of reference, so I don't think this is misleading to people at all...rather it informs them of the possibilities.

Now, I don't believe I'll ever see Ben snuggling with the rooster any time soon , but I do see in him a protective nature towards these birds and I see those same birds, in the run from aerial predators, not running towards the coop but running towards where the dogs are.

I took advantage of a training opportunity tonight...seems like that's how much of the training gets done here, not structured at all.

Mom had left a large piece of styrofoam in the yard and Ben had nabbed it and was chewing on it...from the house I noticed it and yelled out the window, "BEN! LEAVE IT!" and was surprised that he immediately stopped chewing the foam, though I would have preferred that he move away from the object also. I was surprised because I've only had to use that command on him a handful of times and never from that far distance.

In a few moments I went up the yard to retrieve the foam, but I also brought their favorite treat of all....pork femurs. HUGE bones that they can chew the ends off of, but cannot really chew up the whole bone, so this leaves them with many gnawing opportunities in which to get their chewing needs out.

Jake waited impatiently while I cut his bone out of the package~but still gave me space, so I gave him his first. Ben kept bumping the wrapped bone with his nose while I was trying to cut it open and unwrap...so I told him, in just a conversational tone of voice and manner, "I'd really like for you to be lying down and waiting patiently until I give this to you."

He backed off and laid down!!!! Anyone watching would think I'm some uber dog trainer. Not a bit of it...I was just as surprised as anyone would be that he actually listened and complied! He politely received the bone when it was given and moved away to eat on it. Sometimes that dog has his moments, I tell ya...

Then, as I was walking back down to the house, I heard Ben give a quick growl and lunge at a chicken that got too close to his bone. I gave him a verbal correction for it, but then I got to thinking...that's the first time I'd seen Ben do that. He's even shared raw deer meat with chickens and didn't get aggressive.

So...another training moment. I walked up to him and placed my hand on his bone. A very low and short growl was given. A very sharp verbal correction was returned and also a quick slap to the muzzle. He released the bone but didn't back off. Then I put my hand on it again..no growl, but he didn't release the bone. I moved my other hand to the bone and moved my body in a position over the bone and just waited. He suddenly let go of the bone and rolled over on his side, exposing his belly and then further to expose his throat. EXCELLENT response!!!!! Amazed moment #3!

I then picked up the bone and stood up. He stood up and watched the bone. I pointed at the ground and he laid down right away. He acted calm, so I gave him his bone back.

Good session!

Then, I did the same to Jake...when one has little kids around, it's always a good idea to train these dogs that humans give the food and they can also take the food. I put my hand on Jake's bone...no growl, but he didn't let go. I put my other hand on the bone and moved it down to where his mouth was. He didn't let go. I waited and moved my body over the bone more. He let go and turned his head away. I picked up his bone and stepped back and he still didn't look at me or the bone. Good response!!! I gave his bone back.

Then I moved back to Ben and put my hand on his bone...he hesitated a moment, so I put my other hand on it. He released it and moved his head back but remained lying down when I stood up with his bone. I then gave the bone back.

I'm very pleased with how that all went and I'll try to remember to work on that again the next time we get fresh bones to give them. I'm VERY pleased with Ben's quick learning after his initial small growl. That's the first time he's ever growled at any of us and I've worked on taking his dog food and deer scraps before but never a fresh bone.

I don't think any reaction is too over the top or aggressive when correcting a dog's growl at a familiar human or a child, especially over possession of food or a toy. That's just something they need to know real quick and in a hurry that is NEVER allowed. EVER. Under no circumstance are they to offer a growl to a familiar person....that's how bites happen to little children.

His reaction when you just talked to him reminded me of a funny moment with 2 of my horses. A friend of mine was riding my 16 hand colt and my 32 inch mini was loose in the ring, the friend was trying to get Stud to back up, he had planted his feet and was refusing to move in any direction, she was verbally telling him "back" as she worked to get him moving. All of a sudden, the mini comes flying over at a fast trot, right at Studs face, ears flat, Stud took 2 startled steps backwards, the mini put his ears up and walked off... the 2 of us humans almost fell off our horses laughing at the situation.

Ben sounds like a great dog, glad he worked out so well and is nice when they are amazing.

My LGDs are lost causes but my border collie house dogs are so responsive it is almost scary. I don't even give commands most of the time, I just talk to them in complete sentences like I would a child and they do as I ask. They are 9 years old now so we just have a language all our own. It makes me cringe every time I think of having to train a new puppy; I wish these girls could live forever. Sometimes I forget that they are just dogs. I used to do agility with them and that really cemented a bond between us.

Those BC are scary smart dogs! Jake is half BC and we always joke he could do our taxes if we let him take a course on it. He's been able to learn anything we care to teach him, even in his golden years.

After reading about how independent and stubborn LGDs were supposed to be, I'm very surprised at how responsive Ben has been to even my pitiful and infrequent attempts to train. And he hasn't even got what most would consider as any kind of good breeding behind him, so it's not due to having the greatest bloodlines at all. He's a mutt, pure and simple.

I've mostly experienced GPs and GP mix dogs in that type of dog and they've ALL been surprisingly easy to train, responsive to direction and seem very sensitive to what you are wanting....even seem to anticipate what you want.

Very sweet dogs.

For most they are harder to work with. But I agree, I find them easier in some ways because they are so intelligent.
I was reading your post last night but was too tired to post.

LOL with the bone issue. I agree, not hard to teach a dog -any dog- what is right and acceptable. It is common sense really. I have my "grand-puppy" here temporarily. She is a red coonhound cross.

First- I do not like hounds
Second, she never had anyone really work with her. She was with a family and they were relocated and the husband was deployed. My son took her, yet at the time living apt life and not much time.
So now she is with us til my son goes to closing on his house.

She had a bone last week - she was given it because she is still very young and "chewey". My daughter went to take the bone and she growled.

OH HECK NO!

She was quickly introduced to "Southern's" rules.
Needless to say, she will GLADLY give anything up that we want to take from her now.
The more "work" I do with her the more I like her. She is smart, and like all dogs WANTS to please. Beekissed you and I know relationship is key, not sure why it is such a hard concept for so many.

Having to work with this girl on trash digging... she sticks her nose in it all the time (HOUNDS ) . She is doing great though. The other day she was sniffing at the kitchen trash when I came around the corner... I said, "Sadie, no you get your nose outta there, go out to the other room."
She went out to the FR and lay down.. I came i a few minutes later and she had head between her front legs and with head down looked up. I ignored her.
I have to laugh here though because it was so pathetic. I am a big believer in PRAISE and SHAME. I have never used food for training/teaching and never will. It is all about respect. Of course tracking is the exception... kinda have to use food for beginning tracking.
She is turning into a great do. She sits, stays, drops on command, comes when called and has learned "easy" when playing.
Dogs are happiest when they have discipline and training.
But I also see where this is going... my son thinks she would do "best" here.

Didn't mean to take over your thread... I'll have to post about some interesting LGD stuff on my thread.

BTW- I really love this dog.

Southern, I love it when you step onto this thread!!! And I'm simply amazed at what you've accomplished with a hound dog....they are so hard to train in obedience in so many ways. There are exceptions, to be sure, but quite often they have a hard, hard head due to years of breeding towards one goal.

I have a feeling you have a new dog....

I know what you mean...relationship is key. And it can't be what most people call relationship, where they give a dog a lot of love and affection and don't expect anything back except for the same. Or where the dog rules them and the house, doesn't listen to anything they say and pretty much dictates how things will be.

For instance...I have a sister who has many dogs and always has, but I never witness any kind of a relationship between them. One of the dogs kinds of guards her all the time but I never see him coming to her for anything~be it affection or anything else. She loves that dog and thinks it loves her so much because he paces around her all the time , follows her wherever she goes, etc. It never responds if she gives a command of any kind and it never goes to her for affection, just stations himself next to her. She calls that love and protectiveness...I see obsession and possession and no respect for her, just ownership of dog towards human.

To this day I've never seen any of her dogs go to her how dogs normally would do...tail wagging, ears low, mouths open and just wanting affection and direction~you've seen that look...like the sun rises and sets in you and they want only to worship at your feet.

Hers are constantly barking and she screams at them to stop but they never do, they kill one another(the pit bulls), and run off every chance they have. They all bark AT her and her husband when they arrive at the home, especially the one that likes to pace around her all the time...you'd think dogs would know enough to not bark at their own people, but I think it says a lot about their relationship...or lack thereof.

No relationship. Not anything I'd call healthy, anyway.

Bee what a wonderful moment! Ben did everything right and you are right, he sure made you look like a master dog trainer! What a fantastic training session. Give him a big hug.