10 mo GP and goats

mzgarden

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First post, but I've been reading a lot of good information.
A little background - we have 2- 7 mo Nubian does and ~30 chickens. We started having visitors on the property at night and had been talking about getting a Pyr - so we made the leap. We found a 10 mo Pyr that had been raised with cows, lambs and chickens and an adult Pyr. The people were getting rid of their animals, had rehomed the adult and we brought Daisy home. She's been with us only 4 days. She walks on a leash very well, understands no and leave it. She has 4 acres to patrol and goes on perimeter walks, on leash, 4-5 times a day.

Here's where we have a couple questions and could use direction or encouragement.
It seems all the LGD training materials assume you have a puppy -- is there training material for starting with a 'teenager'?
Has anyone used a dangle stick for short periods, if the teenager decides to play with the goats or chickens? For sure, there have been zero injuries, and she is not off leash with the animals yet but she will be at some point and being young, I'm trying to plan for options.
The goats want nothing to do with her yet. I'm assuming it's ok to just let them take their time and allow them to be together only under supervision and time will take care of the bonding?

thanks for reading.
 

Baymule

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I have very limited experience with only GP. She was given to us at 10 months old because she killed chickens. I had to overcome a lot of mistakes made by her previous owners. She is now the best darn chicken guard in the world!

I will watch this thread with interest because we are buying 8 acres and moving. I tell Paris (our GP) that she will have either goats or sheep to guard and lots of room, but to my knowledge, she has never seen either one. Paris is 5 years old so it should be interesting.

I will ask you this, can you pen your GP and the goats next to each other so they can get aquainted through the fence while you walk away, but lurk nearby and watch?
 

Southern by choice

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First a few questions...

Is the property fully fenced?
Do you have a dry lot or pen area adjacent to the livestock, someplace beside but not necessarily in with the goats?

At her age she should be fully capable of being in full time with livestock after a few days. You will more than likely need to work more with the goats than the dog. If this is their first time around a LGD it can take time. Some goats will act frantic and run... this is a test for the LGD. What does she do?
We hold the goats and allow the dogs to come up and sniff and see them.. the dogs will then walk away.

Often, using a transition pen where the dog can be while the goats are right along the fence builds trust as the LGD is not barking, pawing or trying to "get" the animal. Your goal is to only have her in the pen when you cannot be there to monitor the progress.

Getting the LGD in with the goats ASAP is important. When the dog is on lead how long is the lead? A 30 ft training lead is best as you can give her 19 ft or so at a time, at her age and size do not give all 30 feet, as if she takes off you will go down and possibly get injured. I imagine she is 100+ lbs.

It is ok if the goats butt her or bully her. You can also see how she reacts. You want submission. NEVER let your LGD "play" with a goat...EVER!

This is a great age as long as she isn't damaged goods or was allowed to play with livestock. Recorrecting chasing and other bad habits is very difficult especially for the first time LGD owner.

In the reverse...
We recently acquired an adult Lamancha that has been raised with Kangals, she had no idea what our PYRS were and was quite nervous. She was in our quarrantine pen adjacent to the main feild where 2 adult pyrs are 3pyr pups 4months old and an Anatolian pup 5 months old. She learned by watching the dogs were safe but when she went into the main field she still wasn't sure of the "white" things... yet the Toli she was fine. Toli's/Kangals are similar. She adjusted in 2 days.

Goats often will take considerable time to accept a LGD. Not all LGD's/Livestock necessarily bond. That is an overated issue. The point is the LGD learns this is hers to protect and she will protect at all cost.
 

mzgarden

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Baymule & SBC, thanks so much, really appreciate the questions. Sorry this is long.

The 4 acres is perimeter fenced and goats, chickens and pigs have their own cattle panel fenced areas within that space. Daisy has all the open space around/between the pens and is not challenging anyone through the fences; no barking at them, pawing or standing up on the fence.

When we take Daisy into the goat pen, she is on about 12 feet of lead. She does not pull against the lead or challenge the goats - but the goats are keeping their distance. today, Dh took Daisy into the goat pen on the lead and the goats moved to the other end of the rectangle. He walked her toward them until they got nervous, then he/Daisy sit down and waited for them to settle. They start again and repeat. She does not challenge, lunge or try to get to them but she is watchful. DH is home during the day working on the property so he has the opportunity to do the perimeter walks and introductions.

Each evening, after dinner, we typically let the goats and chickens mingle in one fenced area that is also open to the barn. We have Daisy on a lead with us there now. We walk her through the barn and sit in the space with her on the lead with no issues. Last night, we let her off the lead but walked with her (shadowing). She was fine for about 30 minutes - exploring, walking around, laying down. No chicken or goat chasing. Then one of the goats darted into the barn, she followed and chased her around the interior of the barn. No touch, no bark, just more like jogging behind. I mean, the barn is pretty small - if she wanted to 'catch' the goat, she could have easily cornered her, but it was more like = you're playing? I wanna play too. We immediately grabbed her collar, put her on the ground in submission, loudly told her no, re-leashed her and put her outside the gate. We then brought the goat over to where Daisy could see us and loved on her, hopefully telling Daisy she was ours.

As to bad habits - we tried to be aware of that. We watched her in the pasture with two lambs, a cow and pretty young calf. Most of the time, she was near, but not in the middle of the animals. The lambs were frisking and she ambled over to check it out but we saw no bumping or 'playing' with the lambs or the calf so after about an 30 minutes, we thought it looked ok.

I think I would be more confident if the goats actually did butt her a bit, but they are still shying away, so I can't really tell how things will go off leash. She's not the calm, laying down adult Pyr I've been around on other goat farms. But she is also only 10 months old and only 4 days in her new home and surrounded by animals that have never been exposed to a dog before. Maybe time will bring confidence for me, the goats and Daisy.

All your suggestions and ideas are appreciated.
 

Baymule

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Here is a link about Paris.

http://www.backyardherds.com/thread...heep-goats-or-chase-bears-hawk-post-26.23771/

and one about her and the ducks.....

http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/not-my-ducks.28849/

Mostly it took patience. And more patience plus time. I think she had been left alone unsupervised on 3 acres with free range chickens running everywhere. What's a bored puppy to do? Oh wait, there's SQUEAKY TOYS!! Her owners would come home from work to find soggy, dead chickens. When they finally figured out it was her, they punished her terribly.

By the time we got her, she HATED chickens and she would charge their coop snarling and barking. I would scold her for it and she would dive under the deck and hide. Then I would wait a short bit, call her out and talk sweet to her. I would walk toward the coop and she would give me that "I am in trouble look" and dive under the deck. This was repeated over and over again. I never raised my voice and never struck her.

The turning point came when I added a run on the coop to accommodate more chickens. Paris wouldn't come near it. I called her to me and she gave me that "uh-uh, no way" look and dived for cover. As I built and worked on it, she would sniff around it when I went in the house, but the second she saw me peeking, she ran for the deck. Our other dog Parker was all up in my face, in the way, "helping" but not Paris.

I finished the hoop run, put the young chicks in it and then I would sit in the doorway, just watching and enjoying them. Slowly, Paris got closer and closer to me over the course of weeks. Then she figured out that I was stationed there solely to heap praise and love on her. So it played out that I sat in the doorway of the run, Paris came up for loving, Parker hopped in the run and got even more loving, PLUS baby chick feed! It didn't take long before Paris was enjoying baby chick feed. I praised her profusely for eating my baby chick feed all up! The Paris would hop in the run when I opened the door for "her" chick feed, then would come to me for attention. All the while surrounded by young chicks, which she utterly ignored. I talked to her the whole time telling her these were Momma's chickens and she wasn't supposed to hurt them. She must have listened.

I had a crippled rooster in that batch of chicks and used him for bait. It might sound mean, but if Paris and Parker were going to kill one, I didn't want it to be a pullet. Besides, the crippled rooster was easy to catch! I let him loose for awhile, supervised while the dogs played. Then daily I left him out longer and longer and finally I went in the house and left him alone with the dogs. It progressed until I could let all the chickens out, starting with supervised to longer and longer periods of time until I could let the chickens out all day and totally leave the house and be gone all day.

You are fortunate in that it sounds like your dog has not been misused or taught bad habits. I think you are on the right track, Southern has given you very good advice, she is the LGD QUEEN!!!

That is my experience with my GP in my small in town back yard. What worked for me was heaps of praise for the smallest thing she did right and quiet disapproval for what she did wrong. I have never even raised my hand at this dog. I truly believe to do so would destroy something deep inside her. All it takes is quiet words of disappointment and she is devastated.

Please keep us updated on your dog's progress. We will be moving to a house with 8 acres by the end of the year and I want small livestock. So Paris and Parker will embark on a new adventure and we all will have a learning curve. I'll be watching this thread with great interest!


Here is a link to a post I made when Parker, our other dog "played" with a chicken.

http://www.theeasygarden.com/threads/doofus-the-retardo-rooster-and-parker-the-destroyer-dog.13093/
 

mzgarden

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Excellent, thank you. The help is very much appreciated.
So, you ask for an update. This is day 6 with Daisy. We've had some ups and downs. The ups are that when she walks by the chickens, they squall and run and she walks past them without batting an eye. This morning she was off leash/nose-to-nose through the fence with our most curious 8mo doe (goat) without barking, pawing, jumping, etc. I just had a neighboring farmer stop by to return some equipment and meet Daisy. She was behind fence, in her 4 perimeter acres and barked when the barn door was opened. Walked to the fence quietly and let me introduce her through the gate. As he and I stepped away and chatted, she went back and laid down by her dog house and went to sleep. She is offleash with the ranging chickens and unless they come near her doghouse/food area, she mostly is uninterested. When she is interested, it's because she is picking them up and taking them back to where she believes they belong. No injuries, except to chicken-pride.

I think the challenges are more related to being headstrong and wanting attention from us. In 6 days, she has learned to walk respectfully on a lead, and voice directions for Leave it, No and Sit, but is usually testing our persistence and I guess our 'alpha-ness.' Knowing and consistently doing are two different things. She doesn't appear to have that soft heart others talk about. When she misbehaves and we correct her, she seems to pout more than to be upset that we are unhappy with her. Maybe that's her 'teenage' attitude.

The wanting attention - standing up with paws on the gates or barn door when DH is on one side and she is on the other (She has become very attached to him). and then there's the one doe-chasing event in the barn I talked about in the previous post. And then there's the barn cats - nuff said I suppose.

All things considered, factoring in our inexperience, her young age and our animal's inexperience with a dog, I 'think' we're doing ok. It is exhausting because we want to give her as much supervised exposure as possible and it's nerve wracking to give her a new opportunity but to be so watchful all the time. We watch for good behavior and shower her with 'good girl' and 'good Daisy' when we catch her doing what we want. Hopefully she cares if we're happy with her and will be putting effort into doing the things that get her positive rewards.

I am looking forward to the time when we can feel comfortable with her off leash and with the goats in the larger fenced pasture trusting her to guard and not chase or play with them.

Again thanks. It's a huge help to know others with experience are willing to hear the good and the bad and the questions and give pointers. :clap
 

Southern by choice

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It does not sound like she was actually chasing in the barn. When a goat runs suddenly it is not unusual for the LGD to start to take off. Sometimes you need to sit back and watch or you may be interrupting a natural process. Don't assume a chase is in effect. Let it play out. If you never let it play out then you will be correcting the dog without any real merit and it confuses the animal. At this point 6 days is long enough. The goats are what you need to work with. Put leads on the does, hook them to the fence stay with them and bring the pyr over.

Lead walking is at this point is borderline as to whether you want the dog to bond with you or the goats. Remember never try to overtrain a LGD. Basic commands are fine yet remember the LGD MUST make decisions for their herd. There will always be a bit of defiance in a LGD, there should be. LGD's must be independant thinkers as they see, hear, and smell more than you do.

Sounds like you are doing a great job!
Time to release her and allow her to be in with the goats. Your original post said she was raised in with goats so this should not be an issue. The more you keep her away and are only allowing her near them is when on lead will cause the human/dog relationship to increase.

We specialize in training and breeding for the family farm and promote a program of human and livestock bonding but there is a fine line of how much time you spend with her.

The dog needs to be able to prove herself and also see your trust and confidence.

I think the challenges are more related to being headstrong and wanting attention from us. In 6 days, she has learned to walk respectfully on a lead, and voice directions for Leave it, No and Sit, but is usually testing our persistence and I guess our 'alpha-ness.' Knowing and consistently doing are two different things. She doesn't appear to have that soft heart others talk about. When she misbehaves and we correct her, she seems to pout more than to be upset that we are unhappy with her. Maybe that's her 'teenage' attitude.

Could you expand on the highlighted part. what does she do to test you?
What is she not consistent in?

The soft heart is more dependent on dominant positive alpha, negative alpha, positive submissive, negative submissive type.
 

mzgarden

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Wow, you guys are so helpful! When I said: but is usually testing our persistence and I guess our 'alpha-ness.' Knowing and consistently doing are two different things in my mind, I'm thinking -- if she is nosing around the chicken nesting boxes and we tell her to 'leave it' - and she does, but then she comes back and tries again later, maybe she's testing us. Are we going to consistently tell her to leave it each time?

I actually took her into the goat pen off the lead today at lunch with no problems. I guess I'm going to have to get out of the way ;) So, we will do as you suggest and then stop hovering and let the dog do her work and let the goats adjust. I really do appreciate the input! :)
 

babsbag

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I brought home my first LGD when she was 4 months old. My goats had never seen a dog and they were more of a problem that the dog. The goats would back up, run away, head butt, and stomp their feet; that was actually quite comical. The pup would lay down and submit to the goats' obnoxious spoiled brat behavior and I was scared to death. I thought for sure they were going to stomp on the pup, but that never happened. Finally the goats learned that the dog was not a problem and now they just ignore her.

I won't say that my animals are bonded. The LGD does like the goat kids and lets them literally play and jump on her, but she doesn't seem to particularly have strong feelings for the does. But then on the other hand, when a goat leaves my farm the LGDs follow the truck or car to the end of the pasture whining and barking so perhaps they are more bonded than it appears.

The dogs do their job, I have two and they work as a team. I have seen the female run to face the danger and the male simply walks between the goats and the gate as if to say "you aren't going out there right now" and the goats seem to listen. It is really amazing to watch.

When I bring in new chickens and goats I have to do some slow introductions; really slow with the chickens. The dogs know they are not part of their flock and they will kill them. I put new chickens in a pen in the barn for a few days so they can see and not touch. Goats are easier, usually only a few minutes. But if it is a small kid then I have to be watchful as my male LGD will mouth it and try to grab it by the neck at times. Not sure what his intention is, but it only takes one NO and a few minutes and he is ok. Strange was to get to know someone. :) After that brief introduction he is fine with them.

Sounds like your girl is doing well and if she ignores the chickens you are a giant step ahead of many.

Is she looking for eggs in the nesting boxes...mine know that any eggs they find are theirs. YUMMY. But they can't get to the nesting boxes.
 

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