Remedial training for an Anatolian/Pyr/Akbash and me

Wisher1000

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I came over from BYC to solicit help from you LGD gurus (Southern by choice - Elevan) I have had dogs all my life and have always done well with training. THIS ONE'S DIFFERENT (but of course, you already knew that.)

I need some tips for working with my LGD. He is an 8 month old Anatolian/Akbash/Pyrenees cross and weighs about 80 pounds. He is a sweet heart and loves me and loves to play. The problem is that he has no respect for me. I have never had a dog in my life that I couldn't control with just my voice.......until now. This dog does exactly what he wants and cares not if I approve. He will mouth my hands, and legs, and butt and cannot be put off with a stern voice. I have tried growling at him (which will make either of my other two dogs piddle.) He will get down in the play pose (front legs on the ground, bottom in the air, tail waggin') and growl back at me. He has never been aggressive toward me, but he has never considered me the boss. I am so confused. I have never had this trouble. Being the pack leader has always just happened naturally and I have never had to work at it. He will sit on command, and he will come when called, IF he thinks I will pet him and IF he has nothing better to do. If he starts chasing the chickens, I can "bark" his name or "NO!" and he will not slack up even a little. I cannot convince him he is in trouble.

Any suggestions or guidance will be greatly appreciated.
 

brogan007

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Contact Southern by Choice, contract her services, beg her to accept your dog for a training spell......if she can't fix your dog...nobody can. The woman is amazing with LGD...IF...if youre fortunate...she'll take your dog and the money you pay her will be well worth it.
 

Latestarter

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Well, I see you've already "met" Southern :clap disregard my intro on your other post :hide

Hey Southern! Hope you're doing well. I've been working on an Email to you. Work has been horrendous. Will try to get it finished and attach the pics and get it off to you. Take care of yourself aye?!
 

Wisher1000

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How long have you had him?
Do you have livestock?
What is his "job"

LOL- those are my first questions :)

I have had Biscuit since he was nine weeks old. I drove four hours and picked him up from the farm where he was born. He had been the last of the litter to be rehomed. Too early, I know. They had him in a solid walled horse stall, alone, as his poor mom was pulled down to skin and bone and losing hair in big patches. They offered her to me as well, and I have often wished (there I go again) I had brought her home.

When I first brought him home, at night and while I was at work, I kept him in an open air chicken coop where he could see the chickens and goats. The chickens could peck his nose when he pushed it through the wire, but the goats were not close enough to have direct contact. He had clean pine bedding, chew toys, plenty of food and fresh water. He was quite happy there. I had planned to house him in the goat barn but my grumpy goats were being too rough on him when we entered their pen and I was afraid he would be scared by them and maybe even hurt. At five months, I began to let him stay with my elderly male lab (who has to be penned during the day but who patrols the farm at night. If that lab can get to a chicken, he will kill it.) I let the pup out to do chores with me in the afternoons and on the weekends. We feed and do other animal chores, walk the property line, and mingle with the animals together. The lab loved him, but he soon grew so big that the lab couldn't correct him and Biscuit ran/runs roughshod over him. The old lab will be laying in the sun, resting and the pup will climb on top of him and lay straddle his back. The lab barks, growls, snaps and hollars, but he can't get up. Biscuit chews on his ears and head. I even saw Biscuit dragging the 65lb lab around the yard by the tail! Now, I keep the lab in the pen alone, for his own protection. Biscuit plays too rough and the poor old dog can't stop him.

I caught Biscuit with a chicken one night. He was eating it. I suspect the lab killed it and Biscuit took it from the lab, although that is just my speculation. I chased him (walking) all around the 23 acre property and around the house three times. He would stand and chew on the bird until I got within 10 feet and them he would snatch the bird up and run 50 - 60 feet and start eating it again. Then, he began growling when I got close. Eventually, I tackled him and took the bird. I held him down and scolded him and told him it was MY CHICKEN. He fought me for 45 minutes trying to get away. He scratched me with his feet and actually got his teeth on me a couple of times but didn't break my skin. He was not being aggressive, and I was not hurting him, he just didn't want me to hold him down. I did anyway. Finally, he relaxed, and I kept my hand on his shoulder until he was completely relaxed and we both caught our breath.

After that, he was better, but soon forgot that I was stronger and began treating me like a toy again. He will grab my shirt tail or pants leg if I am walking away from him or trying to go into the house. If I "bow up" to him in disapproval, he will sit, then relax his back and flop over on his side, fully expecting me to scratch his belly or love on him. If I don't, he'll get up and try to engage me in play, again. He loves to play with our 15lb female house dog. She will snap and growl and jump up on his chest. He will fall, dramatically, and she will attack his head and neck. She bites the scruff of his neck and shakes it as hard as she can, then she 'fleas' him on the face. He loves it. When she gets tired of beating him up, she tries to go off and hunt lizards but he won't let her. He will pick her up by the shoulders and when she struggles and growls (genuine anger) he runs from her and she chases him in large circles. During this game, he has nearly knocked me down several times by slamming into me full speed. He nearly take my legs from under me! He gets close on purpose, but does not pay enough attention to where I am to keep from hitting me - no manners, no respect. I tried tripping him, thinking if he fell when he got too close to me he would give me a wider path. Nope, he fell, rolled and was running again in one motion. I had a black and purple bruise on my lower leg within minutes, he was no worse for wear.

His job is to keep the varmints from getting the (200) chickens and (2) goats. I have had no losses to predators since he came here. I am happy with his progress in that regard, I just want him to see me as the pack leader. I know I will have to put in some time teaching him what is acceptable and what is not, I just don't know how to enforce my rules on him when he doesn't care if I am unhappy with his behavior. I also know that he will calm down as he reaches two and will likely not be such a pain.

He is already a good guardian, I am totally in love with him.
 

Southern by choice

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Of course I cannot see what he's doing and can only go on descriptions of behaviors. So my first thought is he is very playful right now. He is at the teenage stage.
5-7 months is the pubescent stage
8-9 is teenage

Hormones are dramatically increasing at his stage of development.
This is typically a difficult period for many LGD owners.
Although he may be outgrowing this puppyhood silliness there is also a rise in confidence and dominance which can also mean realy bad behaviors.

This is the hard part for me...
This is the part where I have to tell you some of the things you allowed has contributed to the issues he now has.

First It was good that you gave him some protection at first as a wee pup. :) but.... here it comes....

Protecting them from "everything" for tooo long allows them to think they are at the top of the order.
By 12 weeks it would have been best for him to get "Learned" by the goats. This is away of teaching a LGD respect.
As a Livestock Guardian they must submit to livestock, sometimes that means taking some hard knocks. They learn they are not the #1!
Periods of playtime to get energy out as a pup with your lab would have been fine but that was too much time and he needed to learn a) how to be board b) respect
Housedogs should be respected by the LGD. LGD's should submit to housedogs when OUTSIDE of their field. This must be taught.
I am a strong believer in not mixing LGD's and housedogs in the livestock area.
I want to quote some of your statements and give a brief response...
I was afraid he would be scared by them and maybe even hurt. At five months, I began to let him stay with my elderly male lab
This was way to late. At 5 months he should have been full time with goats and poultry with no housedog with him. Only to be taken out for playtime because he is a single and needs an energy release.

I let the pup out to do chores with me in the afternoons and on the weekends.
This is not enough time with his charges to learn his job. Although this was very good that time out also meant "playtime" in his mind.

The lab loved him, but he soon grew so big that the lab couldn't correct him and Biscuit ran/runs roughshod over him.
This again brings in the above mentioned... difinitive line f what and when together time is appropriate.
A no-LGD breed really cannot effectively train or teach a LGD breed. Their (LGD breeds) communication is different as well as their play and LGD games are unique to LGD's.

Biscuit chews on his ears and head.
VERY NOT GOOD! This is not good on many levels. First flag is he very well could do this to future goat kids, goats, lambs etc.
He is not getting that these are inappropriate.

I even saw Biscuit dragging the 65lb lab around the yard by the tail!
He should be seriously corrected for this and any attempt to dominate the lab.

I caught Biscuit with a chicken one night. He was eating it. I suspect the lab killed it and Biscuit took it from the lab, although that is just my speculation.
I wouldn't be surprised either way if Biscuit did kill the chicken.
The poultry stage is generally at it's worst at 7-9 months.
(My dogs have been all over the map! Toli's tend to be far worse when younger)

I chased him (walking) all around the 23 acre property and around the house three times.

He would stand and chew on the bird until I got within 10 feet and them he would snatch the bird up and run 50 - 60 feet and start eating it again.
He thinks this is a game and by you chasing him all over the acreage you played into it. I know- you didn't know, only in hindsight can you see those things.

Eventually, I tackled him and took the bird. I held him down and scolded him and told him it was MY CHICKEN. He fought me for 45 minutes trying to get away. He scratched me with his feet and actually got his teeth on me a couple of times but didn't break my skin. He was not being aggressive, and I was not hurting him, he just didn't want me to hold him down. I did anyway. Finally, he relaxed, and I kept my hand on his shoulder until he was completely relaxed and we both caught our breath
Since you did finally get him you did the right thing! YOU WON!
This is one you needed to win!
The using his teeth on you although not aggressively is still a no no.

There is a long list of things I would ask and say to do but the very first thing would be to get a PRONG collar.
Only use the prong collar on him during training sessions.
15-20 minutes every evening when it is cool do some basic obedience with him.

By basic obedience I mean teach him to walk on lead at a basic heal, doesn't have to be a true perfect heal ... just where he is not pulling but walking beside you. You will do this in an oval pattern like you are showing him. Not going for a walk. It is called a controlled setting.
You will expect him to move with you going slow fast slow medium etc.
Praise him along the way, if he pulls and tries to drag you bring him under quick correction HEAL while you sharply pull back and release the taughtness of the prong collar/lead.

As this begins to improve you will sometimes stop and command sit. Praise. Command stay while he is still sitting, if he tries to stand command stay BEFORE he actually rises.

This is building trust and DOMINANCE! YOURS!

Get a 30 ft lunge lead or 20ft (TSC)-you will need this for future...

While still on a 6ft lead as you work with the sit and stay and heal you will work on stepping in front of him and moving a foot or two away etc. while he sits. Your goal is to work up to a 20-30 ft lead and him remain in stay.

I am NOT promoting you making an obedience dog out of him... they need some of that hardheadedness do what I want attitude but this is all for the purpose of you gaining control.

Not letting me quote anymore so I will do a second post...
 

Southern by choice

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If I don't, he'll get up and try to engage me in play, again. He loves to play with our 15lb female house dog. She will snap and growl and jump up on his chest. He will fall, dramatically, and she will attack his head and neck. She bites the scruff of his neck and shakes it as hard as she can, then she 'fleas' him on the face. He loves it. When she gets tired of beating him up, she tries to go off and hunt lizards but he won't let her. He will pick her up by the shoulders and when she struggles and growls (genuine anger) he runs from her and she chases him in large circles. During this game, he has nearly knocked me down several times by slamming into me full speed.

The first few words here are real tell tale signs of what HE believes YOUR role is "If I don't, he'll....."

By allowing him this and allowing the inappropriate play with the small dog you have a lot of back tracking to do.

NO NO NO and NO is what you will really need to get use to teaching him.
The 5-7 month stage is a very active stage yet it is also the stage they must learn boredom. BOREDOM is good!
He is already 8 months... way behind.

I suspect he has been entertained way too much.
Somethings like when you are doing chores and he is right there you need to say move, go. Just because he wants attention doesn't mean you cater to it.

Distinct areas for him is best. A LGD needs their field, their territory , their job. The Akbash in him is also where a great deal of stubbornness is coming from... not that all the other LGD breeds don't have their fair share of that as well. LOL

Grabbing at your legs, hands etc is a huge NO NO and you will need to grab that muzzle hard and hold it and enforce a hardy NO.

Consistency and sticking through for 30 days should do the job.
Do not tolerate ANY control tactics. If he tries to engage do not chase after him, turn the other way and start walking.

I suspect Biscuit is a patroller and they are much harder in their first year.

The old adage
I also know that he will calm down as he reaches two and will likely not be such a pain.
is NOT TRUE! An ill behaved LGD or poorly trained and developed dog will NOT just outgrow it. They just end up in shelters, rescues, eventually euthanized.
See it ALL the time. :(

He is young enough to work with and retrain. The whole obedience time will cause a bond of trust and respect and you will be the master. You must be diligent. Sadly many that are advised this want a quick fix and never heard of obedience work with a LGD so they don't follow through. within 1 month they rehome the dog, never giving the dog the opportunity to learn submission.

BTW- Neutering him will not help this situation.

Now- where are pictures? It is a rule here. All LGD people must provide pics of their dogs! :p :lol:

You are more than welcome to pm me with any other questions or issues that you may not want to share publicly.
 

Wisher1000

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Wow ...... digesting ...............

(Questions and Pics to follow)
 

Wisher1000

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Bis&P.jpg


Biscuit, being assaulted by Paisley.
Test the air.jpg


Testing the air... sorry about the orientation, could someone flip them for me? Won't work on my phone.
watching.jpg


The chickens are terrified, can't you tell?
 

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