What we do as goat breeders....

Southern by choice

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These are some of the things we do...

We first find out what the person is looking for and their goals.
We tell people about our goats.
We have registered and unregistered.
We provide pedigrees on our registered goats and lineage on our unregistered goats.
We provide our most current CAE, CL, Johnes test results (whole herd)
We explain limitations, strengths, weaknesses of individual goats

Example – we have a great doe with great pedigree with heavy milklines as is apparent on her pedigree yet her weaknesses – she doesn't have the best confirmation. Beautiful udder and teats but her front and shoulders are a bit “wonky” if you will. As far as a milker awesome, but as a FF she did go down in production earlier than she should have. Unregistered doe has been in milk for 16 months and has no indication she will be dropping off anytime soon. I have one unregistered Nigie that only gives 1 qt a day (next freshening we think she will do better) but her milk is soooo good she is a keeper if not for any other reason than I like her milk for my coffee LOL Another registered Nigie FF is giving 1 1/2 qts day. Her milk is great!

Of course we do Lamanchas, mini manchas and Nigerians. We also have 1 Alpine and 1 Nubian (both will be bred for mini's). So it really depends on what a person is looking for and what their goals are.

We rather engage and answer all questions and offer answers for questions that people don't know to ask. If we do not know what a particular goat will produce (FF you just don't have history on that goat to know) we let people know that the doeling is from a first freshener and we don't know what output will be. Our FF offspring are usually sold at a lower price. Exception is if the doeling is retained long enough for the dam's history to be established.

If we know a person is serious about one of our goats then we go further.
We will run a fecal and give them a brief overview of what we are doing, show them how we run them allow them to look through the scope etc.


Sidetrack for a funny story- we had a couple travel a considerable distance, we were going over the goats and when the goats they were looking at pooped we picked it up off the ground and ran fecals- we were trying to show the ease of it and also to get a count. There were 0 parasites on the slide. We ran the next one – 0 parasites on the slide. Now that is great BUT when you are trying to show someone you want to see at least 1 so they can see what they would be looking for! LOL I finally pulled my book out as I had just run 13 fecals a few days before- 1 of the goats had 2 eggs the other we never ran a fecal on. Finally I said here is my book She really did have 2 eggs (50 EPG)
They got a chuckle out of it that I was irritated that I had nothing to show them.
Yet they could also see from the book that we had 2 goats that did need dewormed (one was due to kid in a few weeks- they tend to have a bloom at this point due to the hormones).

Now that is not always the case- The point is we will do a fecal right there and we get to see together what that count is. We do regular monitoring and if a goat has a high load than we will deworm- record it and tell the person when, how many (EPG counts), dewormer etc. If it is a kid we look for cocci.

We go over every inch of he goat. We use our own checklist (on our website)
http://www.winginitfarms.com/buyers-checklist

We give a sheet on what we expect from them as far as a new owner- these are recommendations.
We do FAMACHA with card in hand.
We send home the goats history- CD&T dates, fecal EPG counts, cocci counts, dates, weights etc. just about everything on the list.
Our goats are bathed and “dipped” before they leave our farm- why? Because mites are microscopic and if a goat gets mites it may be awhile before there is evidence so we feel that doing that is the best way to prevent any kind of issue.

Often experienced goat owners don't need as much time but we have also found even those experienced will learn something. We also get to glean from other owners too!
We look at our goats as a bigger picture. We believe pedigrees are great but a pedigree is not the whole goat. We want good parasite resistance. Good milkers, long lactation, steady lactation, healthy, no environmental allergy issues, well mannered and overall a solid goat! We also look at feed conversion.
We explain what these things mean and why they are important. A goat with poor parasite issues will not be great as a dairy goat. Who wants to get lots of great delicious milk that they have to pitch all the time from chronic worm issues.

Each goat we have on our farm is different. Looking at the overall goat is key.
Management is also important. Environmental factors are big contributors to the health of a goat. Wet humid hot regions will have more issues.

I think support is a big thing too. Will the breeder be there? Is the breeder knowledgeable?
If it is a new breeder they may not be knowledgeable and that is ok, it does mean you will need to be smart about what you do. Often relationships develop through buying/selling goats.

There are times we get so busy we will fail to send something or get back to a person in a timely manner – for those times I feel like I failed. Yet I know everyone we have ever placed a goat with are great people and would just call if it was real important.

Hope this helps. We know of very few breeders that go as far as we do but we do it because we LOVE what we do! Health is the most important thing to us. We want to know that we are sending out a healthy goat, we want our clients to walk away educated, confident, comfortable in their decision.

Above all we stress the importance of finding a good vet in their area. Building a relationship with a good vet is critical when owning goats!
 

Hens and Roos

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thanks, this is great information especially when one is just starting to consider adding goats. Will continue to read and see what others add! Thx Southern
 

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I have another question, if we are looking at breeder websites in our area before traveling to look so we can inform ourselves with knowledge, is there specific information we should be looking for?
 

Southern by choice

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Websites can be tricky. Many breeders we know do not have websites. Great goats- no website. Websites are not always up to date and may not reflect availability or all the info you are looking for. (like mine :hide)

Sometimes you can get a feel for the farm's philosophy or focus.

Many websites have pics of goats, breeding dates, and cost. Some may have pedigrees online. Websites take a lot of time and they are not always reflective of the level of commitment from the breeder.
 

Hens and Roos

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That makes sense about the websites, I know it doesn't take place of talking to the breeder and visiting the animals before making a purchase but I would like to go with as much information/knowledge as possible to make the best decision possible.

The couple of sites we are looking at list about the CAE and Johne's dieses test results/year but nothing about CL- so this is one question we would need an answer on.

Does a breeder typically test every year for CL, CAE and Johne's disease?

Is it a good idea to request a health certificate on the animals even if the breeder is in the same state? The last thing we want to do is offend a breeder but given the prices of the animals we want to make sure it is healthy.

We are in the process of reading Storey's Guide to Raising Dairy Goats and working on figuring out pens/pasture/fencing. We have the ability for them to live inside when needed and especially at night. At this point we are thinking of 2 does. We are also researching the idea of AI (last weekend the University system had a day long seminar about goats and one of the topics was on AI- of course we had a full schedule and wasn't able to attend-I will be watching to see if they hold another one at some point).

we would like the goats for milk and our kids would show them as 4-H projects(hence the 2 does), at this point we really aren't planning to go to bigger shows. We want goats that are healthy as this is of 1st importance to us and of course that they produce milk.
 

Southern by choice

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The CL is a bit trickier - the number one reason is expense.

Some breeders simply do not do CL because they have never seen a lump. Not a great indicator.
Some will do CL testing for a few years in a row and not continue after that.

Many breeders say they do not need to continue as they have a "closed herd".
There is a BIG problem with this terminology.
CLOSED herd means just that! CLOSED!

Any breeder that takes goats off their property to show, lease a buck out, take a doe out for breeding etc IS NOT CLOSED!
A closed herd means no adding of goats, no going offsite either.
All those scenarios listed above create risk, "bio-security" is no longer secure.;)

In a TRUE closed herd a breeder may test for a few years for CL and then discontinue.
This is understandable. If you are out of state and send serum to UCDavis it is $14.50 test.
20 goats= $290 plus overnight shipping
30 goats+ $435 Plus overnight shipping
That is just for CL

Our state lab is very reasonable for CAE and Johnes- $1.50 per test. Their out of state is $3 per test. Our state lab doesn't do CL so they ship it to UC DAvis
20 goats for CAE & Johnes (in state) =$60
30 goats= $90

This can really add up. If you cannot draw your own blood and need a vet to come out there is the farm call and blood draw fees and if they handle all the rest MOST jack up the price.
Recently had a lady in VA whose vet was going to charge $178 for testing on 2 goats- mind you no farm call she had to take the goats to the Vets!
:th

We also recommend that even if the goat is coming from a clean tested herd it is best to test the goat when it gets to 8 months of age. If it is an adult test while in quarantine. This way you have records for YOUR goats not the herd they came from.

The health certificate is usually unnecessary. It is an added expense. When we bring a new goat it we do have our vet come out for an exam. We are a bit over the top though, most simply do not do this. I don't think it is always necessary, most of the time it is not. We do it because I don't have a stethoscope. 2 of my vets are constantly bugging me to get one so I can check heart, lungs, rumin. BUT I LIKE having our vets check the goats, it is an added assurance for me. You may need a certificate to show in 4-H.. I am not sure.

If you plan on showing for 4-H then I would ask your local 4-H leader if they have any recommendations. Find out the requirements at least and that gives you a start of what to look for.

AI is becoming more popular in goats. Personally I rather just have a buck! Did AI in canines years ago, hated it and that was far easier than in goats. Certainty has it's advantages though especially if there are lines you really want.

I am biased though- I LOVE BUCKS!:love


You cannot be worried about "offending".
Believe me you can put yourself in a very bad position by NOT asking the right questions or requesting to see the test results.
Just because a breeder may have an awesome reputation doesn't mean you shouldn't ask.

We had a recent experience with this which I will share on a different thread. IF we would have followed our NORMAL protocol when buying a few goats this year, not only us, but the breeder would have discovered months and months ago that they had a problem. Absolutely wonderful people and awesome breeders had their whole world shook. So many of us in the goat world were devastated for them - our hearts are still broken for them. The most honorable people.

When we visit a farm and we are considering an animal we usually will grab a fecal take it home and run it. This gives us good info.
Doesn't mean we won't purchase the goat but with the data we can ask the right questions. When was the goat dewormed? Any cocci preventatives? What dewormer etc. If the goat was dewormed recently yet has a super high load that isn't a good thing. If they do a cocci preventative and I see oocysts we may reconsider that goat. We know once the animal is move there will be a bloom so if it is already super high we could end up with a newly purchased goat that ends up going down and maybe even die if that load explodes.

I want to add that there are some vets that are simply "anti-testing". We purchased 2 goats over the years from a breeder that does what her vet tells her and she doesn't test, the parent stock of the animals all come from tested herds. When we got the first animal from her (we really wanted the lines) we purchased the animal with the condition if the animal was positive for anything it would be returned for full refund. For these animals we do 2 series of testing 6 months apart for consecutive Neg results and thereafter they are tested yearly.

This year we changed our whole farm around so we added and sold some goats. We will do several years of CL testing after we are again closed. We are getting one more buck so not closed yet.:D
 

Hens and Roos

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once again, thanks for sharing all the above information, it defiantly gives us some more points to consider and other items to research. I also bookmarked your website to read over and learn from too!
 

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We test ours once per year for CAE and Johnnes. We don't do CL testing for a. the cost b. no indications that any have it. Most of the people we know don't test for CL, some do. Some just test for CAE and not Johnnes. We know one who tests for CAE, TB and Brucelliosis. Not sure why they test for TB and Brucelliosis from what I understand there hasn't been a case in livestock since the 40's. That breeder is also a large animal vet. I guess I need to ask him why?

We get fecals run at the state lab twice per year on every animal we have. So, we can provide that documentation. We like to do that because we have such low numbers we can show the parasite profile on the entire herd from an independent lab. We do other fecals ourselves as needed, mostly kids looking for coccidia. While we have never had a worm problem, we have had an issue the last two kidding seasons with coccidia. But, that is really more of an environmental factor than anything else it's been so wet, and overstocking which is our fault.

Most of the animals I sell are from referrals from our vet. Second, referrals from breeders we know who don't breed Nigerians, but standards. Third, referrals from other people who have bought animals from us, or a repeat sale to a previous buyer. Third, website. Fourth, Craigslist.

We know someone here in Wake County who got burned. Not going to say the breed other than they were standards from a supposedly reputable breeder in VA. These were their first goats. Bought 3 does from them. And then paid $1500 for the son of an ADGA National Champion from western part of NC as a herd sire. Does, had CL, gave it to the buck. He had them all put down.
 

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that's sad to hear OFA, I know how quick we get attached to our critters so can only imagine how hard that was to go through.
 

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I have been inspired
We have been doing this for 5 years
Going to do a thread on my farm journal on the entire " strange trip" it's been going from a "keeper" to a "breeder"
Been ups and downs, started with 3 does
We've had as many as 30
It would be informative to those just starting oit
 
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