Which breed?

P.O. in MO

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I apologize for the length of this but this is a little complicated so wanted to provide enough info that everyone who reads this(including me) will hopefully understand it.
VickieB said:
When I started with my rabbits my kits were pretty small too. I raised them up to 12 weeks, and only had one or two make the 5 pound mark. Then I had a couple of small litters. Those rabbits made it to 5 pounds at 8 weeks. When you figure out how much you spend on feed that last month, and you think of the extra work cleaning after that many for that extra month, you realize the importance of getting the kits to dispatch date at 8 weeks. For a while I was culling my litters down to 6 just so I could have them ready to dispatch by that 8 week mark. But then my doe had 8, and I decided not to mess with it and at 2 1/2 weeks 9 kits came hopping out of the nest box... smh (guess I overlooked one) At 8 weeks they all weighed between 4 1/2 pounds to 5 pounds. I dispatched 3. Today I weighed them (they are 9 weeks today) and they weighed between 5 to 5 1/2 pounds.

What breed are you talking about above?

VickieB said:
Several months ago my largest doe had a small litter, and every one of the kits had strong Altex markings (She is 1/2 Altex). They were huge bunnies. There was a buck and 3 does. At 8 weeks the buck weighed in at 5 pounds and the does weighed in at 5 1/2 pounds. I kept the does for breeding. They are 3 1/2 months old now and are weighing between 8 3/4 pounds to 10 pounds. I have an Altex buck I want to breed them to. I'll have to let you know how it goes with them. My goal is to see that 5 pounds at 8 weeks is the norm.

If the doe was 1/2 Altex what breed was the buck?

I am confused (not abnormal for me). I did a search on Altex this is the first thing that came up:
Altex rabbits are a commercial rabbit breed intended to produce bucks for use as the sires of "terminal cross" meat rabbits. Altex terminal cross fryers gain weight faster and go to market sooner. In less-developed countries, they represent better nutrition for people through enhanced rabbit production. - See more at: http://www.raising-rabbits.com/altex-rabbits.html#sthash.T3SWABdC.dpuf

Not knowing exactly what they meant by terminal cross I looked around and found:
A terminal cross is one of which the offspring are not going to be used for breeding programs or genetic improvement. Usually these offspring are market animals.

So in this scenario you would breed a Altex to a NZW(in my case) and the crossbred offspring would be the end of the line and market(my freezer) animals.

Then I found this:
Terminal crossbreeding is a breeding system used in animal production. It involves two (different) breeds of animal that have been crossbred. The female offspring(this by PO: this is the 1/2 altex doe she is talking about) is then mated with a male (the terminal male) of the third breed producing the terminal crossbred animal.[1]

The first crossbreed produce a superior animal due to hybrid vigor. Often this crossbreed is part of a rotational crossbreeding scheme, it is then called a rotaterminalcrossbreeding system if it incorporates terminal crossbreeding. By mating the crossbreed with a third breed farther enhances hybrid vigor

So I am assuming that this is what VickieB is doing. She is using a crossbred doe to produce these offspring that are doing so well on quick development. If this is true run thru how you got where you are VickieB. What other breed did you use to achieve the 1/2 Altex doe and what did you breed her to to get where your at?

PO said: If this is true then the doe kits you are going to breed back to the altex buck should actually be the end of the line. Not sure though since your breeding them back to an altex you may be doing the right thing. I would try it just to find out.
Again, sorry about the length of this but would like to understand this, it sounds like the way to go if you want to improve your productivity.

One last thing I found at Raising Rabbits.com that goes into a little more info about the terminal crossbreeding.

How to Use Terminal Crossing
with an Altex Sire

The word "terminal" means "end of the line." In the case of terminal crosses, this means the offspring are your product (market fryers), and none are saved for replacement breeders. It’s the end of the line for the offspring of the Altex sire.

Why?

If the terminal cross offspring are saved for breeding stock, you will lose the genetic advantage provided by the terminal sire. You will reduce the efficiency and potentially the profitability of your herd, because the marketability of the offspring will revert to as before with each successive generation. In this case, you might as well simply stick with NZW.

The Altex sire will likely be capable of siring offspring for years; when your Altex sire becomes aged, simply purchase a new Altex herd sire. Also note however: in hot climates, younger bucks experience somewhat less sensitivity to temporary heat sterility, and may be better able to sire litters through the hot summer months.

For ideal results, cross the Altex SIRE with a New Zealand White or Californian DAM.

It’s a marriage made in heaven!

  • The Altex buck confers size and growth rate (marketability)
  • The NZW or CAL doe consumes less feed than would an Altex dam, produces more milk, and can wean more offspring.
  • CALs and NZW have been used for decades in commercial rabbit production. The dams are known for raising large litters and for ample lactation.
  • ALL the offspring should go to market
  • Market day should arrive on average up to one week sooner than is typical for a purebred, or a CALxNZW herd
- See more at: http://www.raising-rabbits.com/altex-rabbits.html#sthash.MSFiWtsU.dpuf

PO said: Again, this contradicts the rotaterminal crossbreeding explained above but that's the internet for you, lots of different opinions. Apparently the rotaterminal crossbreeding is working for VickieB. You have to go thru the terminal crossbreeding to get to the other so a person could decide at the offspring of the first altex cross if they wanted to take it a step farther. Besides you could butcher some of this litter and save a couple of does to just to experiment with.
 
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VickieB

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I'm wondering, though, if a doe can get 6 kits to that 5 pound mark at 8 weeks, would it not be more profitable for 2 does raising 6 kits to 8 weeks versus 1 doe raising 10 to 12 kits that end up taking 12 weeks to get to that 5 pound mark? There's a lot of rabbits you're having to feed there for a whole extra month.
 

VickieB

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Well, P.O., I have to hand it to you! You did a wonderful job explaining to me what I'm doing! That has helped me a lot! :) I bought my rabbits from a rabbitry up in Peggs, OK. I was told they were Production White. I was told that Production White was bred by originally crossing Altex and NZW. I bought 4 does and 1 buck. 3 does and the buck looked just like the NZW, they were solid white and red eyes. But one of the does had light Californian markings, and she was much larger than the other rabbits. I was told later that she was 1/2 Altex. (I'm assuming that meant the others did not have as much Altex in them) She generally has larger litters, but does seem to have a harder time feeding them. She had a litter of 12 a week ago, and when I checked her box tonight found that she had lost 4. They look like she had not fed them. The others seem fat and happy.

This seems to be pretty normal for her. Even though she typically has anywhere from 10 to 12 kits, she only feeds 8 to 9 of them. I have tried to limit the size of her litters by putting her with the buck only once, instead of twice like most people recommend. I did let him mount her 3 times. Next time I'm going to let him mount just twice and see if it makes her litter size smaller.

Her kits do grow larger than the other does' kits. The 3 kits that I saved for breeding look like they are going to be even larger than her. I knew when I saved them for breeding that there is a chance I could have 3 "mules." But because they were such wonderful does I couldn't risk not trying.

Last fall I got an Altex buck from AnimalMom. I got him because the other does' kits were smaller, and I felt I needed to bring some new blood into the line. I also got a beautiful Cali doe from her to help with that as well. I want to try breeding the buck with my young breeding does in about 6 weeks. If they breed well, and end up throwing kits like themselves, I will be using them and their mom and my Cali as my breeding does. The Altex buck is also the sire to the litter of 12 that my 1/2 Altex doe had. I am curious as to how the kits turn out.

Thank you for all the info you posted. I really am clueless at what I'm doing when you start talking about breeding lines. My idea of breeding rabbits is: throw a doe in with a buck and hope for the best. If she doesn't seem to take to the buck right off, put a little cologne on him, turn the lights down low, and put on Percy Sledge's "When a Man Loves a Woman." That usually seems to do the trick...

The info really does help, and explains why Queen didn't feed all her babies. She's a wonderful rabbit, she has a wonderful temperament, and is a great breeder. I'm not really wanting huge litters. For me, the perfect size litter is 6 to 8. With the amount of does I have I can dispatch 1/2 a litter weekly and always have fresh rabbit in the fridge. (My daughter usually takes some rabbit to her home also) A litter size of 12 is really almost overwhelming to me.

Thanks again, for all the information! I'll let you know how the breeding with the new does goes. :)
 

P.O. in MO

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I did a Bing and Yahoo search on production white rabbit and looked thru about 10 pages of lists and about the only thing I found was this:

"A Production White isn't a New Zealand. They are similar, but different. They're specifically bred for meat production and to withstand heat. Texas A&M helped develop them. They can handle the 100+ humid heat Oklahoma & Houston has with just an open air barn and fans blowing above them. Pretty impressive. They utilize the feed SO well too. The breeder we got this doe from, feeds her does who aren't on a litter about 3 oz of an 18% rabbit pellet. That's almost as much as I feed my mini lops (1/2 cup!). This doe just came off a litter and her condition is amazing!
The babies get to be about 4-5lbs by 8 weeks old.Their meat yield is supposed to be really high."

PO> The more I read the info posted above the more conflicting it seems. The one says:

From above: "The word "terminal" means "end of the line." In the case of terminal crosses, this means the offspring are your product (market fryers), and none are saved for replacement breeders. It’s the end of the line for the offspring of the Altex sire."

PO> To me this would mean getting an Altex buck and breeding my does and butchering all the offspring.'

Then the other says(shortened): It involves two (different)breeds of animal that have been crossbred.(PO> in this case Altex and NZW) The female offspring is then mated with a male (the terminal male) of the third breed producing the terminal crossbred animal.

PO> So this kind of contradicts the first scenario saying that if you go any farther than the Altex/NZW cross you are not going to improve your line.


It sounds like I need to get an Altex buck and then I can breed my own production white rabbits. Trying to adhere to the info above: By crossing the Altex buck with one of my NZW does would produce bucks to be eaten and does to try the second scenario by breeding to a third breed(mea ning I might need to acquire a Cali buck).

I looked briefly for Altex breeders last nite and I got a feeling I am in for a long drive.
Another lengthy post, but not as bad as the last one. I'm really just thinking out loud by doing this and maybe it will help someone else down the line with this situation.

Thanks for the info VickieB, it was helpful. Also the advice on Percy Sledge, am going to trade all my Barry White albums as soon as I'm done here.
 

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So if I am understanding this correctly, you would be maintaining at least 3 separate groups so to speak or at least 3 different bucks and keeping meticulous records.
 

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I had looked online for Altex, too, P.O. and found the same thing, it was going to be a long, long drive. So I was very excited to find out that AnimalMom had some Altex. I only had to drive about 3 hours or so, and then I got to meet Laura in person. She's an amazing woman. You should see her little ranch! I really enjoyed my visit with her. And I love my buck! He's just a big ol' love bug.
 

P.O. in MO

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Hey Hens and Roos. Kind of depends which way you go but worst case is 2 bucks and I don't think the record keeping would be much. In the terminal crossbreeding method I would breed one of my NZW does to an Altex buck. The resulting litter would be all for the freezer, end of process, do it over and over again. This seems to me to be the best way to go. I will explain after I go thru the other way.

In the other I would breed my NZW doe to an Altex buck, from that litter I would eat the bucks but keep the does I want for breeders and then breed them to another buck of a third breed. So you would have to have 2 bucks, in my case 1 would be the Altex and then probably a California. If you were doing it this way your really just using the Altex buck to produce the does to be your breeders and after that he's just wasting feed until you need new breeders.

I didn't find much when looking around for Altex but from what I read the bucks bring 50 or 60 bucks. Plus a long drive to get. One of the few breeders stated he would not ship because of the big hassle involved (which probably means expensive too). VickieB mentioned Animalmom so I looked up her profile and she's in North Central Texas which would probably be a 6 or 7 hour drive.

I don't think it would be any harder to keep track of as far as keeping records than what I have now. I have 4 does and 2 bucks and none of them are related, so I can breed any buck to any doe at this point. When I start replacing my breeders I am just going to make a note in my book who I CAN'T breed them to. I like to keep it simple.

I don't know if I am going to actually pursue this, the discussion just got started and I got curious about how it works. I am not even guaranteeing I got all the facts straight, but a lot of the information was cut and pasted from other sources not interpreted by me. I tried to show where I was typing and where I was quoting someone else. I would do more research before making any moves for sure.

I definitely can't see keeping an Altex buck around if it's not being used as a breeder full time. I think that I probably shouldn't have 2 bucks now as one could take care of 4 does with no problem. My thought was if I only had 1 buck and something went wrong with him I would have to wait 5 months to grow a weanling up to breeder age before I could start producing meat again. I just looked on Craigslist and found NZW at 13 weeks for 10 bucks. In another 13 weeks he would be 6 months old and ready to go. I also found a mature buck for 15. At 5 oz. a day I figure a buck cost me around $41.00 a year to feed. If I raise 80 rabbits a year that second buck cost me 50 cents a rabbit. Not a big deal I guess. If I got in a bind with one buck I could probably find a GOOD buck for 40 bucks. So it's a gamble.

Sorry, another long post will try and do better, it was a good discussion and I learned a lot. Thanks to all.
 
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Hens and Roos

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This all sounds interesting to see how it would work out. One question that comes to mind is how would you handle your replacement NZW does? Would you bring them in from an outside source or raise your own. Anything brought in from an outside source either as young stock or ready to be breeder stock would need to go through quarantine.

I know that it took us 3 months with our new adult buck to get him comfortable enough with us and his surroundings that he was interested in the does and finally breed the one we kept putting in with him.

Just something to consider :)
 

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I like the old standard NZW also...consistent large litters, good fertility, good grow out and feed conversion, hardy and easy to work with~and easy to find, reasonable price. It helps to breed all at the same time so that those with larger litters can share kits onto does with less so that all kits get an equal share of milk.
 

VickieB

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Beekissed, I agree, those are wonderful qualities with the NZW. But I can say that the Production White have the same wonderful qualities (other than they may not be as easy to find.) I have definitely not had a problem with fertility or litter size. I have had a few small litters, but those litters were born at the end of the summer, when I started my breeding back up and before most here were breeding their rabbits. Everyone of my does had anywhere from 9 to 11 babies in their first kindle, and I only lost 3 of those babies (out of 39). I have been concerned about the size of the kits, only because I know that they should be reaching 5 pounds by 8 weeks and I am beginning to see that. The Altex and Production White were bred to withstand the hot Texas summers and are very hardy. An Altex buck is a more expensive rabbit, but the Production Whites cost me $15 for a buck and $25 for the does. I think that is comparable with the NZW. I think putting some of the kits with other does is wonderful if you are needing the extra meat. I really prefer having fresh rabbit and not having to freeze any, and what we are producing by breeding one rabbit at a time (every 2 weeks) is more than enough for my small family and my daughter's too, so I'm not pushing for the large litters. Because I live in town and I don't have unlimited space for cages, it really works better for me to have the smaller litters, which means I have to work towards that end since the PW have, on average, 10 kits a litter.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the NZW, they are wonderful meat rabbits. But I can say from experience that PW are a wonderful meat rabbit themselves, if you're wanting large 5 pound 8 week old fryers.
 
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