bad doe second time around.

Lowstorm

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So I'll start with the background info.

My bunnies right now are a colony style trio. Male champagne d'argent (Sir Captain Overlord Nibbler), female champagne d'argent (Alfalfa), female Flemish giant (Clover) (REW).

they will be a year in May. Back in December they both lost a litter due to the cold. Was the first time kindling for both of them. I don't think it was their fault due to a random cold snap of -40°f the week they had them... And it being their first time something was bound to go wrong. They each had 12 that time. Yeah, huge litters. I would be butchering and selling a bunch of bunnies right now. Stupid cold weather. (Its really strange to be on a forum that its okay to say butcher and bunnies in the same sentence. So awesome too!)

So, fast forward to last week. I have 2 litters again! The does are choosing to breed the buck at the same time, which is awesome.
Alfalfa is an awesome mom this time around. She had 6, lost 1, and has adopted two of Clovers to =7. Her nest making leaves something to be desired but she is using a ton of hay around the babies, just not pulling as much fur.
Clover made an awesome nest. Had 9 babies, all survived. Gave 2 to Alfalfa. Her nest looks like she pulled half her hair to make!

Now here's the issue.
Alfalfa is feeding her babies until they look like balls with feet. As of today (her babies are a week old today) they are huge. Each is the size of my hand. GIANT babies. Full bellies constantly.
Clover... Clover, clover, Clover. Her babies are alive. But they are about 3/4ths the size of Alfalfa's. And her babies are 2 days older. The ones I put in with Alfalfa are the same size as Alfalfa's. Clovers babies have full bellies, but they look, well, wrinkly all the time still. Not at all like Alfalfa's. So either her milk production is way less, or Alfalfa is feeding hers 3x more than Clover.

These ARE for meat, and I'll sell a few just for feeding themselves.
I was already planning on keeping two of the cross breed does to breed back to the buck and have 1/4 flemish, 3/4 champagnes for butchering.

Should I give Clover another shot at mother-hood this spring? Or should I sell her as pet-only? How can I determine if its genetic or not without spending a year on her babies? I mean, I will do it if I need to, of course I probably WILL to see what happens. If its genetic I don't want that anywhere near my herd and future babies. She is a really sweet bunny overall, and has no issue with me in the box checking on the babies. Alfalfa is the one that hates being handled, hates touch, refuses to let us pick her up, but is such an awesome mother that now I know I will DEFINITELY be keeping her. Because of her behavior I actually was willing to put her on the chopping block. But I can deal with rarely handling her and having a great momma.

I wish I could just combine the two of them into a super momma. Great hair-pulling, great feeding. Although to me right now the feeding is trumping the fur, since Alfalfa is using so much more hay to cover her babies its a non issue.
 

promiseacres

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Not sure the problem... are you upset the Flemish x are smaller at this time? Flemish as a giant breed get huge, eventually. They are however Very slow growing compared to meat breeds. As long as the bunnies are fat and growing I think it's a wait and see situation. Also keep in mind it can be very hard to find bunnies who accept a colony situation.
 

Hens and Roos

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It could possibly be a difference in milk production between the does given that the 2 fosters(Clover's kits) are keeping up with Alfalfa's kits
 

Marie28

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Have you tired giving her Calf Mana or BOSS to help milk production? Maybe she is feeding them but not
producing enough milk?

Most breeders seem to do the 3 strike method. Personally with the first litter dieing because of the cold and not because of the doe I would give her two more chances, especially because she is doing all the right things.
 

Lowstorm

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Kay, I'll keep her. And since the two from her are doing great with the other momma I know it's her. I'll take pics tomorrow. Show the huge size difference.
 

secuono

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Have you seen her feed them? Might be possible that the other nest is being fed by both moms and the other nest is being ignored.
You can also slowly swap out all the kits to the other's nests to get them to grow better, if feeding is the only difference.
 

Lowstorm

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I've seen her in there. I try not to disturb them. But because of the weather up here I made a huge hutch attached type cage, wood n wire. So I can't see her feeding them unless I open the hutch to look in, disturbing the whole thing.
My boyfriend says if I didn't have them to compare I'd never even know. I smacked him for that lol. He's gonna get a pic of them side by side. Same momma different feeder momma's.

I did a ton of research on colony living before I did it. This trio is great due to being together since 8-10 weeks old. With leaving two babies to grow into the colony there won't be fighting. Plus they're gonna get new digs in a month. Converting a whole shed into a bunny palace!
 

Lowstorm

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So here's the pic. My son is holding them, adult size hands. same momma. One on the left fed by the champagne, one on the right by Flemish.
Attach1323_20170226_132312.jpg





And you can lol. Apparently they peed on him. The horror or horrors for a 15 year old boy
 

promiseacres

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That's quite the difference! Usually I may get 1 or 2 that do that and they end up "fading away"... definitely alarming with an entire litter. :(
 

Lowstorm

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Yeah, if it wasn't so drastic I wouldn't have come here. They're getting fed, just.. wow, right?!?! At 9 days old, if they weren't being fed they'd be dead, so it must be a production thing, or she's not staying with them long enough to get a good feeding.

So I have a few options, really...

Switch litters. Is that even possible? Or rotate half the litter with each doe every day? They're pushing 10 days old now though. May have the colony thing working in my favor, since both does smell the same, babies smell the same, everything is equal.

I have a smaller cage I can bring the Flemish inside with, and put her babies in a box in the smaller cage. Negative with that though is she may completely reject the litter with me moving her. Another negative, even if I keep her in the entry way, its about 40-60 degrees warmer in there than the hutch, she may overheat and have issues with that. I can keep her in the shed in the smaller cage...

Move ALL the babies into good momma's box. Risk loosing a few of the small ones, but that's better than the whole litter, right?

Close the flemish into her nest box with the babies for a few days. No light but the box is 2'x2'. She'd have to at least interact with them. I use crocks for water, and hay/pellets for food. PLUS I can pick up the calf manna tomorrow, and give her quite a bit of it on her own. She won't be happy with me, but it may get her going better? I am home Tues-Thurs (My weekends) plus monday and friday mornings, so I have time to watch and make sure she doesn't freak out about being locked in there.

There's no aggression between the does, they sleep together in a giant pile of silver and white with the buck. If I do end up having to temporarily remove Clover, I may not beable to re introduce until its time to move them into the 'palace house',.. Which won't be done until it warms up enough for me to slap a layer of water proof epoxy down on the floor AND for it to dry. Looking at another month or more until then.
 
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