Kimber tangled with Cougar!! Underdogged.

Southern by choice said:

I talked with @dejavoodoo114 last night- After setting aside the emotional aspect and worrying about Kimber we talked about how important it is for people to see and know these things. Thank you Deja for posting!
The efforts of deja to be fully covered have just been a nightmare- it certainly has not been because of a mindset of "I don't need more than one"
I am so glad she put this post up for a few reasons...

1) no matter how many phone consults I do I still hear how "I don't think we need more than one dog" - going over and over why under-dogging is so dangerous

2) understanding that LGD's can end up like this- often people forget this and have NO plan if something like this happens

3) training your lgd to trust you, be able to come into the house or some place for safe recuperation without the dog freaking out is critical- being able to handle your LGD in a crisis is imperative

4) Notice the attempts to fully dog the property- this is commendable

5) Fencing fencing fencing is important! Also land size. Some will read this and say well 30 acres justifies more than one dog- I only have 5 acres blah blah blah-
LAND SIZE is irrelevant! Dog for predator type/load/and number of livestock.

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SBC, we do not always see eye to eye on many topics but this time, I do commend you for this post. You hit on many good points.

All I will add is this: I would strongly advise against breeding for a litter. The OP states "they can't afford" to buy another LGD.
IMHO - they can't afford NOT to.

Rearing a litter is all the cost of buying one dog and much, much more. And waiting months - a year or more - till pups can work.

Also you indicated joint issues with the Boz. Don't spread that by breeding. As you know, I got out of Boz due to too many health issues,
and had to put my Boz down for extreme elbow displaysia.

Please reconsider breeding, and focus your efforts on finding another LGD - and, perhaps open your mind to other breeds other than what you have.
By doing so, you'll increase your chances of finding something sooner. It'd be one thing if you were already dogged up and had the luxury of
waiting for pups to grow up. Frankly, you don't have that luxury. You are in a bad spot and need more dogs now, not two years from now.

What happened to your dog is nothing out of the ordinary in the hardcore world of real working LGDs exposed to large predators. You are blessed
with luck the dog survived.

Land size does come into play as some dogs can't be kept content on smaller acreage, they need room to reduce tension that can come about
if you have dogs not getting along and not enough "air" between them. Predators or no predators. Again, speaking from experience. 32 acres can support
a lot of dogs if they are run properly and under good, tight fence.

Look into bulking up your other anti-predator efforts (fencing, hot fence, night penning, and more.)

I will have an article coming out in Goat Journal next year about clients of mine in California in huge predator load country of bear, lion, coyotes, running 200 head
of commercial goats on huge, thick brush acreage. No goat losses. No dog conflicts. They have worked hard to put a great plan into effect and a lot includes
fencing. Their success story and how they are pulling it off (btw they own 7 LGDs from me, Spanish Mastiffs, Pyrenean Mastiff, Spanish Mastiff crosses, and in addition
to them, Kuvasz and Anatolian) will be hopefully in the Jan/Feb Goat Journal magazine. You might want to get your hands on a copy and see how they did it.

Hope your dog makes clean recovery. And again open your mind to looking into other breeds or crosses to increase your chance of finding a good going LGD.

I am glad that Kimber is making such a good recovery. That was a close one. She is an awesome dog, give her a hug from me too!

Pastor Dave said:

I like using Vetericyn spray jel. It is kinda expensive, but safe to lick and if gets in eyes.

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I used to swear by vetericyn until I found out it was nothing but chlorine and water in a "patented" formula. After this, I have found equal success using hydrogen peroxide and/or alcohol etc to clean wounds.

Goat Whisperer said:

If @dejavoodoo114 is actually giving all those loves/hugs/kisses that we are "sending" Kimber, she has got to be the most loved dog EVER

Seriously GW!! She is SOOO Spoiled now!!!

I think she has a lot of fans What's not to love about that face?!

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It really doesn't help that every time someone walks by, she whines and simply "begs" for attention!!!

Simpleterrier said:

Just a question how much exercise is she getting or how much does she need? Should she not move much or is it ok for her to run about. Or is it better that she runs about. I was just thinking about it and couldn't come up with the right answer. You know like physical therapy

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At this point, we are still trying to keep her exercise to a minimum. She just got back from the vet AGAIN and they had to put her under to correct the damage she did to her staples and stitches. Unfortunately, she had to be put under for the "clean up". I really do not want her stressing her damaged muscles by climbing the stairs. I can absolutely assure you that when her muscles and body are ready, (or a little before) I will insist that she is exercising those muscles and that whole area. In the meantime, she is only allowed outside on a leash to go to the bathroom and otherwise is locked inside. I have had other LGD injuries and in my experience, you want to ensure that their injuries recover before they are really able to work again. For us, we have a small back yard and our pastures. I do not want injured dogs in the pastures. They need time to heal.
MOST Importantly, I follow my vet"s advice. (My experience in vet med is all in livestock medicine, not dogs....)

I agree, they must have time to heal. It is also a balance- giving too many "pain killers" and or anti inflammatory meds can cause them to do too much too soon and do more damage.

Let me guess- every time you walk by her and she is laying down she sticks out that long lanky front leg.

I like chlorhexadine wash and iodine.

@BrendaMNgri, there is a lot that we do not agree on. But there is much that you posted in my thread that we can agree on.

BrendaMNgri said:

I would strongly advise against breeding for a litter. The OP states "they can't afford" to buy another LGD.
IMHO - they can't afford NOT to.

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I ABSOLUTELY agree that we are absolutely desperate for LGDs at this point. The problem with looking at another LGD rather than breeding (I assure that I fully understand the time frame on breeding) is not so much that we can't afford AN LGD. It is more a matter of not being able to afford 4 or 5 LGDs all at once!!! I assure you, I wish this were not the case but well bred LGDs are not cheap, as I assume you well know. We are TRYING to adjust to being underdogged, if things had gone to plan (Wesson had not ended up with Neospora) we would be much better off. As it is.... Our only other LGD (who was never a real LGD) has now been missing for over a week. This is the guy who never left our front yard... We only kept him (safe as he is around all livestock, including chickens) because he hated people...... Talk about stress...

BrendaMNgri said:

As you know, I got out of Boz due to too many health issues

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You and I talked via pm, I knew you long before I bought a Boz and WELL before you joined this site, much less "met" me. Even my genetic"s professor suggested avoiding brindles when the color was not common to the breed. Then my vet did the same. Vulcan was a pity purchase, so that I could neuter a beautiful LGD (I assure you, he is an LGD) and no one would be tempted to breed him. (I really only payed shipping for him).

Kimber is perfect and has NO health issues whatsoever (that I have tested for yet). I didn't actually pay much/anything for Vulcan as his breeder was very honest about his 8 week old testing and the issues that popped up. Since I already needed a smaller pasture for Wesson, I thought Vulcan would do well there as well. OR, if he if ended up without major issues, then he could really do his job but NEVER be bred. Hence the VERY early (8 months) neutering. I wanted NO accidents with his genetics....

I really must say again however, thanks to you, and the others, who objected so strenuously to poor health performance, many of the Boz dogs imported now are soooooo much better than they were in the beginning when you and your friends were involved.

BrendaMNgri said:

Please reconsider breeding, and focus your efforts on finding another LGD - and, perhaps open your mind to other breeds other than what you have.
By doing so, you'll increase your chances of finding something sooner. It'd be one thing if you were already dogged up and had the luxury of
waiting for pups to grow up. Frankly, you don't have that luxury. You are in a bad spot and need more dogs now, not two years from now.

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Again, I really am in need of good LGDs now rather than later. As I learned, here and elsewhere, good LGDs are not cheap. I need 4-6 more just for the parts I already have fenced in with our predator load. If you consider a minimum of 1K per dog, that is far too much money for us to be able to put out. Also, that is generally for an okay potential LGD AS A PUPPY. Whereas, I have an excellent breed, who is an excellent example of the breed and of LGDs, (if I can find and arrange for an equal male) to be able to fill my needs. I am well aware of the time line. That is why I stopped looking for more pups. I need adults ready to work, they are not so easy to find unless you have a lot of money to put forward. Keeping in mind that I need more than just 1 adult.

This means that any puppies are not going to be helpful to us for years to come. Whether we breed them or we buy them. We are doing what we can to protect our livestock by locking them up when possible until we can get back to the point where we can rely once again on our LGDs for protection.

Southern by choice said:

Let me guess- every time you walk by her and she is laying down she sticks out that long lanky front leg.

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Or her beautiful "little" head!!! She is such a Sucker for attention right now!!! And I am a such a sucker for her!!! I just have to stop and love the adorable little pup! I just wish she had back up or she likely would not have been injured in this way. Or at least, whatever it was would have been dealt with.

Well, I haven't officially updated here. I am going to start with the pics of us on the way to the vet because they are just cute.


These are the pics of why I brought her back to the vet. She had torn out her staples and the stitches underneath.

Sorry the poor girl isn't healing up faster. Sucks that the staples didn't hold. Hope this go-round does the trick.

Because I am morbid, or maybe it is my "vet" side, I have even more pictures...


They had to keep her Monday evening and put her back under on Tuesday for surgery again to fix the damage she had done. I picked her up as they were closing Tuesday night. She was so wobbly she tried falling asleep in her food bowl!!!




Anyway, we tried to keep her happy with deer bones and such...


These are pictures of how she looks after her second surgery.

Latestarter said:

Sorry the poor girl isn't healing up faster. Sucks that the staples didn't hold. Hope this go-round does the trick.

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I certainly wish the staples would have held. At this point, they have removed some of the drainage tubes and put in another. We should remove the tubes next Tuesday or so, and the stitches they opted for next Friday... I sure hope things work out according to plan this time!!!