Looking for opinions on weird breeding experience

rainsinc

Just born
Joined
Aug 31, 2011
Messages
6
Reaction score
3
Points
9
Okay so this is a long story with lots of weirdness
Please share your opinion about any of the events
Back ground: my boyfriend has raised meat rabbits his whole life and knows his stuff but this experience has left him confused at every turn. I only ever had 2 pet rabbits
Story:
We bought a 20lb pregnant female Flemish giant from a city 5 hours away from our house. We paid a pretty penny because the breeder said she's probably going to have 14-16 babies
I put her in my cat carrier and drove her home. She didn't like it at all and hated me for the first few days.
We expected the babies for June 1-3 ish.
About 2 weeks early she started bunching straw so my bf said the babies must be coming.
She started moving straw around but didn't build a nest in the nest box.
Next she started pulling out fur but not enough and she just kind of left it all over the cage
She gave birth to 3 babies 1 week earlier than we expected but we only found 2 initially. She had each in a different space and didn't make a nest. We found the third buried in straw with a broken back.
We tried to keep putting the babies together but for the first 2 days they could be found anywhere in the closed in portion of the cage.
Here's the first weird thing about the kits: all three were born with fur, not a light dusting of color, they had proper fur.
After a few days she built them 2 nests and covered them up with fur. The babies were rarely in the same nest each time we checked in. By the fourth day they were usually in a nest together but which nest yet would be in would change.
By the time the due date rolled around we gave up hoping she might have more (I'd read online that they could space them out when stressed).
Even though she's only got 2 she's favored one over the other. One kit has always been fed regular and the other has had a few days where mom didn't feed her. She was quick to learn to come out and find her own food as soon as she was able. The well fed kit is almost double the size of the other but my bf says the little one is the normal one and the large one is freaky. She's not fat though she just looks like she's from an older litter but they were born the same day and are about 3 weeks old now.
They opened their eyes on schedule.
So couple questions: would you give this mom another chance and see if she's a better mom with a bigger litter next time?
Why did they have fur?
All other comments or ideas of why things were weird is appreciated
Okay so this is a long story with lots of weirdness
Please share your opinion about any of the events
Back ground: my boyfriend has raised meat rabbits his whole life and knows his stuff but this experience has left him confused at every turn. I only ever had 2 pet rabbits
Story:
We bought a 20lb pregnant female Flemish giant from a city 5 hours away from our house. We paid a pretty penny because the breeder said she's probably going to have 14-16 babies
I put her in my cat carrier and drove her home. She didn't like it at all and hated me for the first few days.
We expected the babies for June 1-3 ish.
About 2 weeks early she started bunching straw so my bf said the babies must be coming.
She started moving straw around but didn't build a nest in the nest box.
Next she started pulling out fur but not enough and she just kind of left it all over the cage
She gave birth to 3 babies 1 week earlier than we expected but we only found 2 initially. She had each in a different space and didn't make a nest. We found the third buried in straw with a broken back.
We tried to keep putting the babies together but for the first 2 days they could be found anywhere in the closed in portion of the cage.
Here's the first weird thing about the kits: all three were born with fur, not a light dusting of color, they had proper fur.
After a few days she built them 2 nests and covered them up with fur. The babies were rarely in the same nest each time we checked in. By the fourth day they were usually in a nest together but which nest yet would be in would change.
By the time the due date rolled around we gave up hoping she might have more (I'd read online that they could space them out when stressed).
Even though she's only got 2 she's favored one over the other. One kit has always been fed regular and the other has had a few days where mom didn't feed her. She was quick to learn to come out and find her own food as soon as she was able. The well fed kit is almost double the size of the other but my bf says the little one is the normal one and the large one is freaky. She's not fat though she just looks like she's from an older litter but they were born the same day and are about 3 weeks old now.
They opened their eyes on schedule.
So couple questions: would you give this mom another chance and see if she's a better mom with a bigger litter next time?
Why did they have fur?
All other comments or ideas of why things were weird is appreciated
Okay so this is a long story with lots of weirdness
Please share your opinion about any of the events
Back ground: my boyfriend has raised meat rabbits his whole life and knows his stuff but this experience has left him confused at every turn. I only ever had 2 pet rabbits
Story:
We bought a 20lb pregnant female Flemish giant from a city 5 hours away from our house. We paid a pretty penny because the breeder said she's probably going to have 14-16 babies
I put her in my cat carrier and drove her home. She didn't like it at all and hated me for the first few days.
We expected the babies for June 1-3 ish.
About 2 weeks early she started bunching straw so my bf said the babies must be coming.
She started moving straw around but didn't build a nest in the nest box.
Next she started pulling out fur but not enough and she just kind of left it all over the cage
She gave birth to 3 babies 1 week earlier than we expected but we only found 2 initially. She had each in a different space and didn't make a nest. We found the third buried in straw with a broken back.
We tried to keep putting the babies together but for the first 2 days they could be found anywhere in the closed in portion of the cage.
Here's the first weird thing about the kits: all three were born with fur, not a light dusting of color, they had proper fur.
After a few days she built them 2 nests and covered them up with fur. The babies were rarely in the same nest each time we checked in. By the fourth day they were usually in a nest together but which nest yet would be in would change.
By the time the due date rolled around we gave up hoping she might have more (I'd read online that they could space them out when stressed).
Even though she's only got 2 she's favored one over the other. One kit has always been fed regular and the other has had a few days where mom didn't feed her. She was quick to learn to come out and find her own food as soon as she was able. The well fed kit is almost double the size of the other but my bf says the little one is the normal one and the large one is freaky. She's not fat though she just looks like she's from an older litter but they were born the same day and are about 3 weeks old now.
They opened their eyes on schedule.
So couple questions: would you give this mom another chance and see if she's a better mom with a bigger litter next time?
Why did they have fur?
All other comments or ideas of why things were weird is appreciated
Okay so this is a long story with lots of weirdness
Please share your opinion about any of the events
Back ground: my boyfriend has raised meat rabbits his whole life and knows his stuff but this experience has left him confused at every turn. I only ever had 2 pet rabbits
Story:
We bought a 20lb pregnant female Flemish giant from a city 5 hours away from our house. We paid a pretty penny because the breeder said she's probably going to have 14-16 babies
I put her in my cat carrier and drove her home. She didn't like it at all and hated me for the first few days.
We expected the babies for June 1-3 ish.
About 2 weeks early she started bunching straw so my bf said the babies must be coming.
She started moving straw around but didn't build a nest in the nest box.
Next she started pulling out fur but not enough and she just kind of left it all over the cage
She gave birth to 3 babies 1 week earlier than we expected but we only found 2 initially. She had each in a different space and didn't make a nest. We found the third buried in straw with a broken back.
We tried to keep putting the babies together but for the first 2 days they could be found anywhere in the closed in portion of the cage.
Here's the first weird thing about the kits: all three were born with fur, not a light dusting of color, they had proper fur.
After a few days she built them 2 nests and covered them up with fur. The babies were rarely in the same nest each time we checked in. By the fourth day they were usually in a nest together but which nest yet would be in would change.
By the time the due date rolled around we gave up hoping she might have more (I'd read online that they could space them out when stressed).
Even though she's only got 2 she's favored one over the other. One kit has always been fed regular and the other has had a few days where mom didn't feed her. She was quick to learn to come out and find her own food as soon as she was able. The well fed kit is almost double the size of the other but my bf says the little one is the normal one and the large one is freaky. She's not fat though she just looks like she's from an older litter but they were born the same day and are about 3 weeks old now.
They opened their eyes on schedule.
So couple questions: would you give this mom another chance and see if she's a better mom with a bigger litter next time?
Why did they have fur?
All other comments or ideas of why things were weird is appreciated

We have Giant Chinchillas and New Zealand crosses. We are NOT experts, but we have read somewhere that rabbits can be bred again even if they are pregnant. It may be that she got bred and a short time later got bred agin. This might explain why she was "early" and why one kit was quite a bit bigger than the other. It could also address some of the confusion and other abnormal behaviors. One of our does did the 2 nests thing, one that she paid more attention to. My thought was maybe she didn't have as much milk as she should and thinned out the ones to receive. There was not a specific bunny that received. We also have goats-One of our does had a kid one morning and had another 24 hours later. She never accepted the second. We had to put her in the milk stand and force her to allow him to nurse. She threw a fit!! Our conclusion would be to give her another chance or two to adjust. Sounds like the original breeder did not watch her very well and stress probably contributed, which is not the rabbits fault.
 

Ridgetop

Herd Master
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
6,572
Reaction score
22,280
Points
693
Location
Shadow Hills, CA
DH and I raised rabbits successfully for 35 years semi-commercially, and for breeding stock. We had over 100 "holes" in our rabbit barn. DH showed his rabbits, and we sold meat to stores and individual buyers. Since you are starting out, here is some advice I offer you based on what I learned in our 35 years of breeding, showing, raising, and selling rabbits. I offer it in the hope that you will avoid some of the mistakes that we made in the beginning.
:bunny :bunny
First, please do not go back to that breeder for any more rabbits, either does or bucks. Here are several reasons why:

1. Your doe may or may not be 20 lbs. since you haven't been able to weigh her, but she does not look that large. Also, although the pictures don't show her body structure, she doesn't have the "coffin" shaped Flemish Giant head. She is probably a cross bred doe, from the shape of her head I would guess a standard meat breed. Since he sold her as a Flemish Giant he lied to you. You can't trust him to sell you anything truthfully.

2. A 2 year old doe is not worth as much as a 6 month or 12 month old doe. 6 months to 18 months is the prime breeding life in a rabbit doe. If you wait to breed her until she is 12 months or more, she will never make a good breeder, and after 2 years she will be too old if she has not been in a strict breeding rotation. By 2 years old even in a strict breeding rotation her breeding life is moving to the downside and she will have fewer pregnancies and fewer kits per pregnancy until she is 3 at which point she will be at the end of her productive (breeding) life. Rabbits usually don't breed after 4 years old and certainly will not produce the bunnies you want as a meat producer for what it will cost to feed her. I won't say you paid too much since I don't know the prices in Alberta, Canada, but since you say you paid a "higher price" for a doe that was supposed to produce 14-16 kits, you probably got taken. I will definitely say you got taken after reading that the doe was 2 years or more old. 2 years old is when I started deciding whether a doe is good enough and productive enough to keep for another year, or if she should be culled from my barn.

3. 2 years old is when I sold bred does half price to 4-H and FFA kids so they would have a meat pen litter for the Fair. Those kids wanted cheap rabbits for a litter. I bred those does to our champion bucks, and DH would help them choose their meat pens and any bunnies they wanted to keep for future breeders. If buyers asked me to, I would also include an older 18-24 months bred doe cheaply when someone wanted to buy a trio. That way they would get a bred doe to produce a litter of unrelated bunnies, 2 junior does and a junior buck to which to breed the bred doe back. The older doe's unrelated litter could be sorted and kept for meat and breeding stock. I usually suggested keeping the best buck and doe from the litter.

4. Paying a higher price for a doe based on a guarantee she would have 14-16 kits was wrong. That breeder was giving you a bunch of garbage. :somad He could not guarantee how many bunnies she would have even if he palpated and counted the number of fetuses. Even then you often miss some, or count rabbit raisins as babies. LOL Also moving a pregnant doe often causes them to re-absorb the fetuses into their system. Yes, rabbits can do that. A large infestation of rats in the barn, raccoons or possums or a predator attack can cause does to re-absorb as well.

5. Since the doe never had more than 8-10 bunnies as a young doe, at the age of 2 years old her litter size would start decreasing. She also will start missing conception as well. Did the breeder show you his breeding and production records on that doe? Always ask to see the production records if you are paying for a "proven or guaranteed breeder". After a bad experience with a supposedly good breed, personally, I only like to buy "virgin" does and bucks to avoid vent disease which is a form of rabbit syphilis.

6. lf the doe was in a substandard size cage (as it sounds like) he was a bad breeder and you never want to buy from someone like that. Even if you feel sorry for the animal - walk away. Once you have your rabbitry set up you take a chance on bringing in disease from a breeder like that.

7. If you go back to that breeder for another rabbit, you run the risk of getting another cross bred rabbit being sold as a purebred. The kits from the cross breed are worth less, even if you are only going to breed for meat. One normal size kit and one dwarf or mini size kit in this litter may mean that she has some dwarf breeds in her from her sire. (The Tort color is very common in Holland Lops.) When breeding for meat, you want all the kits to be similar in size at birth, grow at similar rates, and at 8 weeks (slaughter time) weigh about 4-5 lbs. each. You don't want assorted sizes and weights in a litter.

8. Flemish Giants do not make great meat production breeds. The grow a lot bigger, but their bones are much bigger and you cannot eat the bones. If you examine pictures of good Flemish Giants (according to the standard) you will see that their bodies are not as well shaped for meat production as the standard meat breeds. Some people like to cross Flemish Giants with meat breeds to get a larger meat bunny but it is not necessary. If you stick with one of the standard meat breeds, you will produce more meat in ratio lb. per lb. meat to feed. After years of breeding New Zealands, we found that the slightly smaller Californians will actually produce the same amount of meat a week earlier. 9 weeks for NZs and 8 weeks for Cals.

9. When breeding for meat, the goal should always be to produce the most amount of meat in the least amount of time for the least amount of feed cost.

The cage your boyfriend built is very nice, but what are the over all dimensions? It sounds like the entire cage space is 24" x 72" but divided into 3 24" x 24" cages. Those sizes are fine for the dwarf and mini breeds, but way too small for standard meat breeds or the giant breeds. I used 24" x 24" cages as grower cages ( 1 bunny per cage) when we separated our 8 week old bunnies into fryers (culls) and show stock. At 12-16 weeks we culled our growers again and at that time any keepers (future breeders/show stock) went into 30" x 36" cages.

The minimum size cage required for a standard meat production breed 12 lb. doe - New Zealand, Calfornian, Satin, etc. - is 30"d x 36"w x 18"h. A minimum standard meat breed buck cage is 30"d x 30"w x 18"h. I use 30" x36" x 18"h cages for both bucks and does since that way I can rearrange my does and bucks without a problem. I also have gone over to all Babysaver cages since it saves litters when a doe doesn't use her nest box. "Babysaver" cages have the bottom 6" of the walls 1/2" x 1" wire so the kits cannot wiggle to the sides and fall out of the cage. You can save the kits if you find them in the am.

You must use a nest box when you breed rabbits. The mother rabbit will not gather up her kits like a cat or dog. Kits that are born "on the wire" or accidently get out of the nest will just crawl around until they die. Sometimes you will find a kit that has gotten out of the box because it was nursing and the mama was disturbed and jumped out of the nest with the kit hanging onto the teat. That is what the front lip on the nest box hopefully will do - knock the baby off and back into the box.

If the doe decides to make a nest on the floor of the cage instead of in the box, you need to constantly transfer the nest materials and fur from where she puts them on the floor of the cage back into the nest box. Sometimes new moms will not recognize the nest box for what it is, or may just prefer another place in her cage. Try moving the nest box to the spot where she insists on building her nest. Once I accidently put the nest box in the spot where the doe had her potty spot. Rabbits will potty in the same place in their cage. Luckily I noticed that the doe had peed and pooped in the nest box. I cleaned it out and put new nest materials in, put it in another spot in the cage, and she immediately made her nest in the box in its new location.

The size nest boxes I use for my NZWs and Cals are 12" w x 21" long with the front lip 6" high, rising to the back at 10" high. I make my own out of 3/8" plywood reinforced with 1" L brackets. I do not put a top on them because it upsets some does when they are giving birth if they bump on the roof of the box. I don't take chances the does will decide not to kindle in their boxes. They are fickle enough without encouraging problems! :hu

For a 20lb. Flemish Giant doe with a litter you will need a cage at leas 30" d x 48-60""w x 20"h. The nest box for this giant breed will need to be proportionately wider, longer, and taller as well.

When you buy more rabbits to breed for meat, I suggest you buy a straight meat breed buck. You do not want to use a massive buck on your does since you can have kindling problems. If you decide to use Flemish Giants as your brood does use a meat breed buck to breed them. I suggest you breed this doe again to a meat breed buck and see what she produces. If she misses conception a time or two, and has progressively smaller litters, you will know that the breeder sold you a doe he was planning to cull and you were just the unlucky couple that showed up to buy her.

We learn from everything, and this was just an unpleasant and expensive lesson. Next time you will know better.

As to the original question about breeding peculiarities -

It may be that she got bred and a short time later got bred agin.

This can definitely happen. I had a doe give birth to 3 kits a week early. Since I did not have the next box in yet, they all died. I immediately tried to breed her back but she attacked the buck so I put her back in her cage thinking to breed her a week later. I did not bother to put in a nest box since she had kindled early and all kits died. On her due date she had 5 more kits and again they died - no nest box. 48 hours later I rebred here and 30 days later she had a perfect litter. Rabbits have 2 uterine horns. They can conceive a litter in one side and also in the other. Usually they give birth to both sides at once. In this case, the doe had conceived probably without the buck falling over so I kept breeding her. When I finally got a successful breeding I marked it down but the original breeding a week earlier had taken as well. So when the first set of kits were at term she had that litter which died since there was no nest box. When the second breeding was at term a week later, she had the second litter. After that even if it looked like the breeding was not successful I put a box in the cage.

We also have goats-One of our does had a kid one morning and had another 24 hours later.

Again there are 2 uterine horns. We had a large Suffolk ewe who was enormously pregnant. She lambed a huge ewe lamb in the afternoon but she was still enormous. I soaped up and felt around inside and she was empty. The next day she produced twin lambs, a ewe and a ram, half the size of the first one. They had to have been in the other horn since I had gone in up to my elbow (she was a BIG ewe) feeling for another lamb and there was nothing there!
Strange things happen in livestock! :ep Good luck and enjoy your bunnies.
 

Latest posts

Top