Lumps after antibiotic injections

SageHill said:

Estimating weight can be intimating when you're starting out and learning. There are ways to get estimates with weight tapes and such - I don't know about cattle, only did a wee bit when I was in school. I remember weight tapes for hogs. Personally I have sheep. While I've just been breeding and raising them for about 5 yrs, I've worked with them for over 30 teaching and training herding dogs. One of the first things I purchased was a good scale. It is sooo worth it's weight in gold to me. Now I can look and guestimate weights pretty close - but I still use the scale when I'm wondering about a weight and about 3-4 times a year to get weights on the entire flock. Lambs are weighed often.

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Thanks for mentioning the tape! We used that method for our pigs a few years ago and I forgot about it. I would love a good scale. Guess I should put it on the list. That and a sheep chute thing and a goat stand with head holder lock. I wish livestock stuff wasn't so expensive.

First off, some apologies... I replied and asked some questions and probably came across a little short. It was a real tough day Thursday and I probably should have waited to answer.

It sounds like you have a compromised situation with your vet availability. Sorry for that... we have more large animal vets in this area than I can count and they are all busy and active. It is hard for me to relate to not having any close by to deal with.

We estimate an animal's weight when giving shots, but have learned to "eye ball" them... It is hard to do when you don't have alot of animals to look at all the time. I get that.
Scales for smaller animals are expensive.. we are looking at one for our barn to use in the chute, and you are talking in the thousands... but it will have to handle cattle that can weigh 1500 lbs or more...

A month old calf, you didn't say what kind, beef or dairy... will weigh in the neighborhood of 125-200 lbs., Oxytet is given at about 3 cc per 100 lbs.. different brands are a little different, the strength is also taken into consideration... but the calf should not have been given more than 6 cc shot. 2 shots, 3 days apart. No more than that. If there is not noticeable improvement, then it needs to be reassessed.
I actually like to go back to the "old drugs"... penicillin is one I prefer if the animal is going to need multiple treatments and is where it can be gotten in to treat. We use different drugs for the animals out on pasture with no convenient catch pens/head chutes etc to contain them, since we will use a dart gun for that. Mostly it is fighting pinkeye, after the animals have been out for a few weeks/months and then a round of pinkeye flares up.

Oxytet also burns when given... it is a good drug for some things, but not my first go to choice except for foot rot and pinkeye. Respiratory problems I prefer to go with Nuflor, sometimes Baytril but you have to be careful with that one... Draxxin is the "top of the shelf" drug and we don't use it unless nothing else seems to work... but we do use it in the dart gun for pinkeye because it is very effective and is a "one shot" deal.

If you have given the calf more than 3 shots, stop. It is not working... and you can actually give the calf a toxic dose.

When you give it subq... under the skin, sometimes you get between the wrong layers and it will cause a bigger lump and it will take alot longer to be assimilated into the system... if they jerk that often happens... been there done that...

I am all for trying to take care of your own animals, and to save money, and in your case, obviously you are HAVING to take charge of your animals health and care. I am not faulting you for that at all.
Unfortunately, over the years, I have seen way too many cases of """ so and so doesn't feel good, we need to give them a "shot"....""" next thing you know the animal has had 3 shots, not given according to label directions or on the advice of a vet, the animal might get better, so then the owner becomes an expert on what to do if the next one gets sick. Over use and improper use of drugs is part of what got us into the situation with the VFD... Veterinary feed directive, which led to the banning of over the counter drugs that used to be available at the feed store... Because of this, now we have to go through the vet for everything we need. Any drug that has a use in HUMANS is now restricted in the livestock industry. Because "backyard farmers" with a few animals would use a drug that did not necessarily work, then switch to another... and over dosed and over medicated... AND then would sell animals that had drug residue before the required with holding period...

Case in point... I am very ALLERGIC to penicillin.... anaphylactic shock as a kid I was told... parents both tolerated pen so one time they had no reason to think otherwise and dr gave me a shot of pen and they wound up having to rush me to the hospital... I don't even remember... But when things like that get in the food chain, with a LONG witholding time in the milk and meat... it could adversely affect me if I were to drink milk or eat some meat from a recently treated animal.

NOT SAYING YOU.... but in general, many did not follow label directions... and this was one of many factors that led to the restrictions... Many BIG commercial farms would use drugs in "heavier than normal" dosages and not take into consideration the extended withdrawal times... animals would get sold into the food chain, people would then either get sick from reactions... or WORSE.... they would then have resistance to the drug's effect and their dr would not get the response they expected when diagnosing and giving a drug for something... You build up a tolerance to the drug and then stronger drugs would be needed...
This is something that took years and years to build up to... chain reaction so to speak...

So, I apologize for the "shortness" of my answer... I am by no means a vet, and am not near as good with somethings as other farmers in my area... I just hate to see more inexperienced people giving drugs/shots/treatments when they are not sure of what they are doing...

SteepedInSheep said:

Thanks for mentioning the tape! We used that method for our pigs a few years ago and I forgot about it. I would love a good scale. Guess I should put it on the list. That and a sheep chute thing and a goat stand with head holder lock. I wish livestock stuff wasn't so expensive.

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You can do alot with cattle and hog panels. They work well and are budget friendly. I only have sheep - so I don't need the strength cattle require. Need to get some more since the garden "stole a few" this year.
If you check Premier1Supplies.They have several options of panels and such for sheep and goats. I've got their guillotine gate, stop gate, creep feeder gate and a lot of their PrimaGates (actually 4 ft panels with an option to make them 6 ft). I buy when I can so after awhile it adds up, I'd love to have it all at once - but $$ on any livestock stuff. They have free shipping on orders of $100 or more.

I went back and edited my post... Oxytet is given at 3cc per 100 lbs... I was thinking about Draxxin... sorry...
For a young calf we mostly will give no more than a 5 cc shot... The rule of thumb is no more than 10 cc per injection site... so if it were an adult cow and needed 15 cc, we would give about 7-8 cc per shot. I always look at the label of any bottle when I give a shot... just to make sure of what I am giving.

Thank you everyone! @SageHill @farmerjan @Baymule
I talked with my husband and got some info.
Calf is a guernsey/dexter and he estimated her at 100 lbs.
We gave her 3 shots at 4 cc, 3 days apart.
Her only symptom is a huge, hard swelling on her lower jaw. It doesn't feel like an abcess to me. It's hard, like a golf ball, though it's bigger. Initially we were assuming diphtheria based on that.
She's not in any distress. Breathing is fine. Not lethargic.

Yes, the vet situation is tricky. As it is we're in kind of a grace period as he was supposed to retire last year since he sold his clinic. He decided to stay on one more year so we're on borrowed time. I'm so glad to have this forum as a resource.

I can't believe I didn't think of cattle or hog panels as an alternative to a sheep shoot. duh!!!! Thank you! Also thanks for the premier 1 suggestion. I bought poultry netting from them before.

I'm wondering if this IS an abcess. It doesn't feel as hard as it did when we felt it a week or so ago. It's movable and firm, but not as hard...

Yes, that looks like an abcess... Has the calf ever been "tubed"? Fed with a tube down her throat? That can cause an injury, scraping the throat tissues, irritation... she could have just gotten a thorn in the skin that formed a pus pocket and it is festering... Not something I would personally deal with, as to opening it up, due to the windpipe, and esophageal tube... would wait for it to burst open on it's own... or it might just go down also... body reabsorb whatever caused it.

She also looks like she might weigh 75-80 lbs...,guernseys are notoriously thin, and dexters are a smaller skinnier breed. I am assuming you are going to raise her to maybe milk her? She might not be getting as much nutrition if her body has been fighting an infection of sorts.. Yet you say she is eating okay... has she tried to eat any grain or hay? Could she have gotten a stalky piece of hay and had it stick her in her throat?

Hopes are it will come to a head and burst open on the outside... if so, just flush it out with clean water or a saline solution... think gargling with salt water for mouth infection, tooth extraction, etc.. let it drain, do not bandage or cover... keep the surface fly sprayed so they do not try to lay eggs in it... if there is a hole of sorts, you can take an empty syringe and flush out with anything that is safe for use in a human mouth... If it scabs over, and then swells again, then work the scab off, preferably at night so the flies will not be as active,,, and squeeze it gently to see if there is any crap coming out... usually once an abcess bursts or is opened up they will drain and heal quickly... if it scabs and does not swell, let it just heal on it's own...

I am assuming that the lumps from the shots are on the sides of her neck? I would say that the dose was too high for her... this could be a reaction too...

I have never seen or known anyone with a calf with diptheria... normally if they get a lump on their jaw, it is simply called lump jaw and will normally burst open and drain and heal over..but it is usually much further up on the jaw area, not the neck area..... Usually never know what causes it, although sometimes it is thought to be nutritional in areas that tend to be "not great" pasture etc...cow's milk lacking, or gestation lack of enough of "something" ..... we will give a shot of Multi-min... it is a vet prescribed vitamin with higher than normal selenium... many areas are very low in selenium and so cows levels are low, and calves will be very low... shows up as what is called white muscle disease... tendons and such are weak, they often are knuckled over at the ankle joint... or even have very stiff joints that do not work good... a shot of BoSe, which is Vit E & Selenium, will usually take care of that ...not associated with lump jaw normally... but multi-min just seems to help any problems that could be nutritional that you just don't see.. One shot deal, not like taking a "daily multi-vitamin" ....

Great advice.

farmerjan said:

Yes, that looks like an abcess... Has the calf ever been "tubed"? Fed with a tube down her throat? That can cause an injury, scraping the throat tissues, irritation... she could have just gotten a thorn in the skin that formed a pus pocket and it is festering... Not something I would personally deal with, as to opening it up, due to the windpipe, and esophageal tube... would wait for it to burst open on it's own... or it might just go down also... body reabsorb whatever caused it.

She also looks like she might weigh 75-80 lbs...,guernseys are notoriously thin, and dexters are a smaller skinnier breed. I am assuming you are going to raise her to maybe milk her? She might not be getting as much nutrition if her body has been fighting an infection of sorts.. Yet you say she is eating okay... has she tried to eat any grain or hay? Could she have gotten a stalky piece of hay and had it stick her in her throat?

Hopes are it will come to a head and burst open on the outside... if so, just flush it out with clean water or a saline solution... think gargling with salt water for mouth infection, tooth extraction, etc.. let it drain, do not bandage or cover... keep the surface fly sprayed so they do not try to lay eggs in it... if there is a hole of sorts, you can take an empty syringe and flush out with anything that is safe for use in a human mouth... If it scabs over, and then swells again, then work the scab off, preferably at night so the flies will not be as active,,, and squeeze it gently to see if there is any crap coming out... usually once an abcess bursts or is opened up they will drain and heal quickly... if it scabs and does not swell, let it just heal on it's own...

I am assuming that the lumps from the shots are on the sides of her neck? I would say that the dose was too high for her... this could be a reaction too...

I have never seen or known anyone with a calf with diptheria... normally if they get a lump on their jaw, it is simply called lump jaw and will normally burst open and drain and heal over..but it is usually much further up on the jaw area, not the neck area..... Usually never know what causes it, although sometimes it is thought to be nutritional in areas that tend to be "not great" pasture etc...cow's milk lacking, or gestation lack of enough of "something" ..... we will give a shot of Multi-min... it is a vet prescribed vitamin with higher than normal selenium... many areas are very low in selenium and so cows levels are low, and calves will be very low... shows up as what is called white muscle disease... tendons and such are weak, they often are knuckled over at the ankle joint... or even have very stiff joints that do not work good... a shot of BoSe, which is Vit E & Selenium, will usually take care of that ...not associated with lump jaw normally... but multi-min just seems to help any problems that could be nutritional that you just don't see.. One shot deal, not like taking a "daily multi-vitamin" ....

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She's never been tubed but has munched hay for quite a while. I assume it would be from that.
She's been eating well. We've thought she was not as full looking as we would like and offered more milk replacer but she was always "meh" about it. She's drinking a gallon per day right now. She does have calf starter available, and has for maybe a week and half? She hasn't shown much interest yet.
And yes, we would potentially like to raise her up as a milk cow. Her mom is the guernsey and she's had too many issues either keeping a pregnancy or giving us a live calf, so we're looking to replace her.
Thanks for the treatment suggestions. I've been having some abcess issues with my sheep as well. I don't understand the sudden influx of them! Several of my sheep have had them but only 2 had them in a place that may be indicative of CL and that pus tested negative.
It really weirds me out that now we have a calf with an abcess.

SteepedInSheep said:

I've been having some abcess issues with my sheep as well. I don't understand the sudden influx of them!

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I don’t have any hooved animals so I don’t know much. But is it possible you have some kind of weed that has put on a lot of thorns lately?