ADGA Inbreeding what % is good?

[Goats are Great]

I have been raising and showing Nigerian Dwarf goats for well over 10 years. I have recently bought a buck that is almost 14% inbred on some really nice lines. This is the first time I've really started thinking about the % of inbreeding... And I realized I have no idea what is too much or what is an okay number. What do you guys think? My buck is really awesome and gave my very consistent kids in 2015. These are his first kids and none of them have freshened, but their conformation is lovely. I am very excited to see how they do in the show ring!

But on the flip side I also experienced my first taste ever of kids with fatal birth defects. I lost three of his kids... In over 10 years I've never lost a kid that hit the ground breathing... Until now... I've had a few that died prenatal and by a few I mean three... I raise about 10 kids a year. Is it his fault? I don't know? He's the only major factor to change in my breeding program...

Are the stunning does he gave me worth the loss? Only one death did I have confirmed by my vet as a birth defect, but I suspect the others to be as well...

On side note he gave me 9 super healthy and happy kids! They are growing like weeds!

Is line breeding worth it to you?
What combinations of line breeding do you like?

 

[Ponker]

I'm starting to build my first herd of sheep (sorry wrong animal but it fits with the inbreeding topic). Some of the pedigrees I see have a COI in the teens and I too wonder if this is 'good' since the lines are exceptional or if that degree of inbreeding is borderline. Maybe its a personal judgement call - Whatever level you personally are comfortable with depending on the strength of the pedigree. I wish I knew more. Admittedly, I'm just a neophyte learning as much as I can along the way. With not enough knowledge on the subject, I'm tending to shy away from COI's in the teens in favor of more diversification. I know that people have line bred with outstanding results. What I look for is close breeding with siblings or father/daughter, son/mother... I haven't been able to get a warm fuzzy with those close relationships and breeding. I do know that grandfather/daughter breedings are acceptable when a knowledgeable breeder is line breeding and selecting for certain traits.

 

[samssimonsays]

Wrong animal for the topic from me too but I raised rabbits and the rule of thumb was no brother sister, and only 2 mother/son or father/daughter pairings in 4 generations. I have been told it takes 3 to 4 generations before defects start to arise in complete inbreeding. There could be a chance the genetics just didn't mesh up properly between those does and your buck? Maybe a fluke and environmental even? I am too new to know anything specifically but those would be my best guesses.

You have to do what you feel is best for your herd and what you are comfortable with in the end. good luck.

 

[Latestarter]

I have been raising and showing Nigerian Dwarf goats for well over 10 years. I have recently bought a buck that is almost 14% inbred on some really nice lines... My buck is really awesome and gave my very consistent kids in 2015. These are his first kids and none of them have freshened, but their conformation is lovely. I am very excited to see how they do in the show ring!

Since the buck was recently purchased by you, I'm assuming that he is different lines than your girls that you're using him on. If this is NOT the case, then what follows won't matter. My input is based solely on math & odds coupled with (my self assessed) common sense rather than inbreeding/line breeding experience.

If he's inbred 14% and you are breeding him to your existing (new/different lines), the offspring would drop - at 50% genetics from each parent. Since the surviving kids were "lovely" and you are excited at their show ring prospects, I would continue to breed him to the older does, but would NOT use him on his produced offspring as that would raise the inbreeding percentage back up for the future offspring. Perhaps you could go back to your previous buck to breed the new buck's offspring? or... Have you considered using AI for your does for a cycle (or 2) to bring in outside genetics?

 

[OneFineAcre]

I think there are some members of this forum who do not believe in breeding animals that are related.
Others have no issues with breeding as closely as Father to Daughter or Mother to Son or Half Brother/Sister.
I think all agree you should not breed full Brother/Sister.

I bred a Half Brother/Sister this year, so I will let you know how that turns out.

With that said, 14% is not what I would consider closely bred.
And like LateStarter said, if your does were not related, your offspring were an even lower percentage.
I don't think the fact that he was 14% line bred led to your birth defects.
But, the fact that he was new could mean that he was the cause. Or, it could be totally unrelated.

 

[SheepGirl]

I used a ram this year on my ewes who is related to all of them. Bred him to his mother, his full sisters, his half sisters, and his nieces. Some of his nieces are also his half sisters. So all very closely related. So far 7 ewes have produced 10 lambs, two have passed away. One due to injury/cold (I'm guessing, she died overnight) and the other, the dam had a ruptured tendon so I'm not sure if he died during labor or not. Otherwise I haven't had any issues. This is not the first time I've linebred/inbred. I've also bred father/daughter, dam/son, and full sibs previously.

 

[Southern by choice]

I don't think that is too close especially if your does are unrelated.

What were the birth defects? missing anus, missing eyes... internal organ issues? Did you necropsy?

How close was the buck in relation to the doe?

Personally I think sheep and meat goats are completely different as most are terminal animals.

Dairy goats I think are quite different. We don't line breed and don't like anything too closely related... perhaps it is carried over from my canine years... destroyed great breeds and we now have horrible AKC registered animals that may have a pedigree but are truly horrible.
Can look pretty on the outside but oh goodness... what is on the inside.

You should do what you feel comfortable with. 14% isn't considered a big deal.

 

[Goats are Great]

I don't think that is too close especially if your does are unrelated.

What were the birth defects? missing anus, missing eyes... internal organ issues? Did you necropsy?

How close was the buck in relation to the doe?

Personally I think sheep and meat goats are completely different as most are terminal animals.

Dairy goats I think are quite different. We don't line breed and don't like anything too closely related... perhaps it is carried over from my canine years... destroyed great breeds and we now have horrible AKC registered animals that may have a pedigree but are truly horrible.
Can look pretty on the outside but oh goodness... what is on the inside.

You should do what you feel comfortable with. 14% isn't considered a big deal.

The ones I raise are dairy and show animals so I am shooting for something that is great in the milk department and in the show ring.

One kid was born breathing and then died shortly after birth. She was a first freshener not related to the buck.

Another doe had a set of twins both born alive and then died. One we had opened up by the vet and she an issue with her large intestines not growing to the proper size to be functional. The other lived a week and then started to get sick acting.. he did have a few coccidia in his fecal, but nothing that should have killed him.. The vet gave us meds just to be safe... we gave him one treatment... 24 hours later he had a death convolution and died... We did not have him opened up... but it seemed to be a stomach issue... like his twin...

The doe is not related to the buck, but she is the result of a half sibling breeding on her sires side. She is from closely bred line. She was born 2010 and has been bred every year since 2011 and never had issue until now. After I bred her to a line bred buck... but not one who is related to her...

The buck was brought in because I am trying to blend this new line with my lines to correct some issues that keep being passed down... So he is only directly related to one of my does... and not one that had a problem...

It could just be a fluke... I guess i wont know until I decide if Ill use him again.... I have never been a big fan in line breeding... its just ive started dabbling because its hard to get constancy in your kids and develop a "herd type" without doing it... outcrossing are such a gamble... but at the same time much healthier...

I thought that the buck being line bred wouldn't be a problem since hes not related to my does...
It might have nothing to do with him... but it just seems like since there has never been a problem until now... it might be him...

 

[Goats are Great]

I used a ram this year on my ewes who is related to all of them. Bred him to his mother, his full sisters, his half sisters, and his nieces. Some of his nieces are also his half sisters. So all very closely related. So far 7 ewes have produced 10 lambs, two have passed away. One due to injury/cold (I'm guessing, she died overnight) and the other, the dam had a ruptured tendon so I'm not sure if he died during labor or not. Otherwise I haven't had any issues. This is not the first time I've linebred/inbred. I've also bred father/daughter, dam/son, and full sibs previously.

How many generations have you done this for?

 

[Goats are Great]

I think there are some members of this forum who do not believe in breeding animals that are related.
Others have no issues with breeding as closely as Father to Daughter or Mother to Son or Half Brother/Sister.
I think all agree you should not breed full Brother/Sister.

I bred a Half Brother/Sister this year, so I will let you know how that turns out.

With that said, 14% is not what I would consider closely bred.
And like LateStarter said, if your does were not related, your offspring were an even lower percentage.
I don't think the fact that he was 14% line bred led to your birth defects.
But, the fact that he was new could mean that he was the cause. Or, it could be totally unrelated.

On his five generation pedigree their is a goat that shows up at least 5 times... one 4 times and a few others 3 times... that doesn't seem like alot?

Please dont get me wrong I have the utmost respect for his breeders... they really are very knowledgeable... about such things... and He is a lovely buck! Just about everyone in his imitate family are finished champions. he is related to more than one national champion holder... I think he is awesome! I just wonder about genetic diversity...