Anyone else notice any of their goats wasting away? Pics Added

[Goat Whisperer]

x2 on Babs post

It sounds like you are dealing with several things right now.

This is what I'd do if they were my goats…
Get a fecal run on all the goats, try to have a McMasters done- not just the normal slide like they use on dogs. The McMasters will give you an actual count.

Pull blood on all the goats and send it out for at least CAE & Johnes. Most think CAE as arthritis in older does but it can cause them to be skinny. I don't know what your lab changes, but our lab charges us $1.50 for each test per goat. If you are out of state it would be $3 for each test per goat. I would also be sending blood out on a select handful of goats and have a mineral analysis done. This cost more but would be worth it IMO.

After you get some data go from there. Stop tossing workers at them until you know what parasites you are fighting against. You may Aldo be dealing with mites or lice, but bald patches are usually due to copper deficiency.

I don't know how the vets are in your region but if you may want to hire in a GOOD goat vet to help your situation right now.

 

[Goat Whisperer]

Postings at the same time.

Don't know why your vet would recommend testing 10% of the herd.

Unfortunately I don't think there is going to be a cheap way of fixing this It sounds as if this has gone on for a long while and it is going to take time and money to fix this.

 

[Latestarter]

You say everything was fine until after the move... To me, that is telling! It doesn't matter if it's 2 acres or 200... If there was disease/worms already present, your herd will be the beneficiaries. If the browse/feed/graze available is poor quality/lacking nutrients/minerals, the herd can eat all day and not get what it needs to thrive.

Not being personal, just trying to help. You say you wormed them, but did you run fecals first to see if they had a parasite load? and maybe more importantly which one(s)? Did you do a follow up fecal to see if the dewormer worked? There are major issues with parasites building up resistances to certain dewormers because of over use/misuse, or not following the full dosage/time/ # of applications recommendations/requirements. There are some areas where specific name brand dewormers are no longer effective at all against some parasites.

When talking generally poor condition while adding coat problems/issues, aside from parasites, you need to look at diet and especially minerals. Some goats don"t like blocks... it might be sensitive teeth or teeth damage of whatever, but most recommend loose minerals and be sure they are specifically designed for goats... not cows or sheep or general. Perhaps your other goats are able to get what's necessary, but these two aren't... for whatever reason.

Finally, like Babs said, draw blood and do the testing. Eliminate the possibility of the most common issues CAE/CL/Johne's.
http://www.johnes.org/goats/faqs.html

Babs also asked if the animals in question are related... It may be a genetic issue coming down through the breeding lines... They may just be lacking that vigor that some lines have... I hope it's nothing serious or contagious and you get to the bottom of it.

Edit: What Babs & GW have said!

 

[Southern by choice]

Also no signs of diarrhea so i dont think its Johne's.

It does not sound like johns. Have they been tested for CAE or CL?

I am not trying to scare anyone but goats don't usually present diarrhea with Johne's. That is a cow symptom. The most common symptom in goats is wasting, it is called the wasting disease.

Babs is right - often that is the last thing you may see right before death.

Look at feed (grain) & Hay
FAMACHA
BCS
fecal analysis on EACH goat (McMasters Method)
examine for external parasites
Blood draw on ALL goats for testing of CAE & Johnes (CL if you could afford it)
Extra vial on 4 goats of herd for Mineral Analysis (1 buck, 1 older doe, youngest doe, sickliest) PADDL is about $25-35 each

Drawing your own blood is a huge part of your cost... I would see if there is someone in your region that does consulting and could draw blood... you can send in all these test yourself for a fraction of the cost.

Like everyone else said- You need to make sure you are dosing correctly for deworming and a follow up for efficacy. Proper weight is important.

What is their FAMACHA?

 

[alsea1]

Where are these two in the herd. I have one or two that are low on the totem pole. If I don't make sure they get feed the others would starve em.

 

[babsbag]

You asked if you can use Ivermectin on your goats, and yes you can. Really suggest that you get the fecal done first but Ivermectin is the only wormer I use, but in some areas the worms are becoming resistant to Ivermectin. That is why you need to get the fecal done before and after worming so you know if your wormer is working.

 

[misfitmorgan]

I'm not really looking for a cheapest fix....here is the problem the only vet I can find to even look at goats or sheep is an hour away....they know squat about them. To give you an idea we took our lamb there for a broken leg, the vets office has been open for over 35yr and it was the first lamb they have ever had with a broken leg. They know almost nothing about goats/sheep, they didnt even realize she was a lamb and not a goat and they are the closest vet i could find that would even take a lamb/goat even being an hour away. They are also very exspensive that lamb is now a $600 lamb and she still has atleast one more visit with that that will make her over $700. We called about getting them to do just the CAE part earlier in the week and they told us we would have to load our entire herd and bring them to their office...we tried to explain that is not an option since we have 4 of them that are going to kid any day now and young goat kids that are definately not going in the trailer. We asked if they could come to the farm and they said no because we have not established enough of a farm relationship with them..even though that has been the only vet have been using for 2 yrs for our dogs and everything. They also said it would be $30 for the office visit per animal and $35 per blood draw per animals and $25 per sample sent to the lab and another $30 for another office visit(human only) to get the test results....so for our tiny herd(12 goats) to test for CAE it would be $1,110. So i'm sorry but no thank you because that is insane since i know MSU where they are sending it is $6.50 per sample. They also wont let us draw the blood and bring it in because we asked if thats an option.

So we are going to draw the blood ourselves and send it in. I want to test everyone for CAE which will end up being $60 plus shipping and OPPV for our two adult sheep which is another $10. Now here is my question i thought CL and Johne's test were not really reliable? Unless they were shedding cells it would come back negative?

The goat whom died last fall-ish was the mother of both of these does. Ella who is the worse off one is her older daughter and cassiopia who is only a little underweight but also ready to pop with we are guessing twins was out of a set of twins herself off the doe who died. We did necropsy her but found nothing wrong other a weak looking heart. As i mentioned before as near as we could figure she was atleast 7-8yrs old, we figured it had to be age related. She was always a bit of a thinner goat not skinny though. We have always had trouble keeping weight on the Alpine doe's specifically during fall/winter i dont know if that is a breed thing or what. Even the unrelated alpines slim down in winter.

Ella is the only one with such a bad problem with it she slimmed down a bit last winter but then gained weight back in the summer. She is way skinnier this year though. To give you an idea...

The pic labeled Billy 1 was Ella Late summer 2014
The pic labeled Ella is her in approx December of 2014, you can see her backbone sticking out.
The 2015 kids picture is her in approx April 2015

So definately plump then she got pretty thin....then she gained in the summer months and now thinnier then last year. In the summer she usually looks good, shiny coat, plump, healthy. In winter she gets thin and her coat goes all dull and brittle.

I dont think this is Johne's because she does gain weight and look healthy in between.

As far as the fecal test again the vet wants us to load her and her sister in a trailer and bring her in. $30 per animals, fecal is $95 per animal and it takes a week min to get the results back $250 later....you might see why we dont like the vet. They are not good vets for livestock at all. They dont do anything per say everything is sent out. We ask questions and raise concerns and are told no dont worry about it. They also messed up setting the lambs leg and it is half off but already healing with a giant bone callus so we can do nothing about it. We also asked wasnt the cask getting to tight, could they please check it and maybe re-wrap her, they said no its fine come back in two weeks. That night we got home and her leg was bleeding down the cast from being so tight on her hock the skin was rubbed off and the bone was visible. They put some glue on it and tried to put the same cast back on her. We stopped them. The office is 90% pet services, they rarely see goats/sheep mostly cows/horses. If there was a good vet around the area i would use them. We used to have two but one retired and the other died.

Maybe i am being to judgy but when we ask a question and they dont know...or they ask us questions, its off putting. When the vet looks at you and literally says " you guys know more about sheep and goats then we do" what do you do with that?

For herd placement they are 3rd and 4th out of 12. No one else shows any signs of anything going on, a few dull coats but thats it. In fact every other goat would be considered overweight atm so i dont think its feed. We put Ella in her own stall with her own grain, a goat/sheep specific mineral block, and loose minerals. She was snorting the minerals like it was crack so i definitely think she is missing some mineral. I gave all the herd members who wanted it Probios Paste in case they were lacking and we set out loose minerals for them as well.

As far as it being from the move....again no one else is showing any signs of a problem. There was also no animals on the property for 3yrs before we brought ours on.

We looked over both goats last night and found no parasites at all that we could see. The bald patches are only by her rump and they are not bald bald more like the hair was rubbed off or winter hair shed out earlly when the summer hair wasnt fully gown in yet.

So bascially we are waiting for the vaccum tubes to arrive then we will draw blood and send it in for testing. Bio Screen is $16.50 per goat/sheep which im fine with i just though CL and Johne's were not reliably testable.

 

[Southern by choice]

No testing is 100% accurate.
1 test 1 time is also not the best way to evaluate a herd.
Yearly testing will give you the best overall accuracy but you have to start somewhere.

Many that go on about the "unreliability" more often than not just use it as an excuse to not test.
Looking at titers on repeat testing is pretty reliable.

There are 4 tests for Johnes. Starting with serum is reasonable expecially under your circumstance. You could do 2 collective samples (5-6 goats pellets in one) pay $40 for fecal culture. It is the most accurate. If one of those collective samples grows MAP then individual would be in order.

Considering the extreme cost and lack of vet services in your area there are some things you may want to look at.
First look and see if you have an extension service in your county. If so they can help and at the least can give you a list of large animal/ farm vets.

Second, considering the cost you could at this point have bought your own scope/slides make your own solution etc for under $300 and be running all your own fecals... yes takes some practice but there are many pics of what the parasitic eggs look like on-line.

The doe you lost may very well indeed have had a heart defect which can cause anemia and eventual death. The fact that the herd had to stay in a barn all winter probably has had a negative effect and some goats will fare better then others.
The hay you were feeding in the barn over winter may not have been nutritionally adequate. Again, some goats will fare better then others. Very few people understand the importance of tested hay. Most think "it looks good so it is good"... not so. Maybe this year if you need to overwinter in the barn you may want to try something like Chaffhaye.

I hope you find out what the issues are. Testing won't hurt it will only help.

 

[misfitmorgan]

What do you mean 1 test 1 time? We planned on testing the entire herd and then re-testing of course next spring. Is that not how it is done? I thought everyone tested in the spring and apparently not just 10% as the vet had said.

As i said i can do the bio-screen which is CEA, CL, and Johne's it's only $16.50 per sample. Since Johne's and CL are reliable, thanks for the info on that.

I think we can only do the serum tests because the lab only offers ELISA method testing. I would love to send the samples all the DCPAH here in Michigan but they only accept samples from vets. They also only have ELISA or AGID.

We did contact the Ext Office they recommended this vet office for sheep/goats aka the only ones who take them. The problem locally is that all of the old timey vets have died or retired so we only have new young vets...with less experience or vets who dont want to work with large animals/livestock. There are 11 vets within an hour drive from our farm, 2 of those 11 will work on livestock....of those 2 only one will readily work on sheep/goats and they wont give us a farm call.

So option 2 scope and slides....i can do that. Any recommendation on a particular scope?

The hay was varied, it came from 4 different fields the closest being 3 miles apart from each other the farthest being 20 miles apart. Some hay was grass, some first cut, some second cut, some alfalfa, some clover....it would have been hard to test the hay because there were so many kinds not just one type and nothing in large quantities....the most we had off one field was approx 80 bales, but another field was only 18 bales which was the clover hay. We will likely be giving the alpines some store bought type of alfalfa blocks or pellets or something to keep their weight on this winter.

Luckily we will not be overwintering inside the barn next year, this year was a lot to do with not having enough fence built and drainage problems on the farm that basically made the door they are suppose to go out of to get to the pasture about 2ft deep in water. I dont have a problem with them being outside but outside after having to wade thru 2ft of water in late fall is asking for trouble. And then the door froze into the water so we couldnt get it open...etc etc. The property is getting tile this year and more fence and another alternate door put in the barn so should have the issue solved.

Hopefully she will have slowed down on the loose minerals when i get home from work. Things by the barn door they use are dry enough since the thaw so they have free access to outside now. The two thin Alpine girls just stand out there in it, the rest mill in and out mostly in cause thats where the hay feeder is still.

 

[OneFineAcre]

The Johnnes test can sometime show false positives with the standard ELISA. If you get a positive you can do a second Acid Fast Stain test that's better, but more expensive. We have had to do this once in many, many tests.

The CL test can give false negatives which to me is worse and why we don't test for CL.