Are we feeding our miniatures right?

[boxofpens]

I'm so glad that they all seem to be doing better. Keep an eye on the bull. Our heifer went down within 48 hours. The first sign was loose poop, then not chewing her cud or eating/drinking. We had one of our vets out twice before he called A&M and sent us over. She was so bad that my husband was able to roll her over on her back with all four legs in the air trying to get her to get up so we could load her in the trailer to take her to A&M. We finally shook a bucket with some textured sweet feed (which we found out later made her condition worse --we had absolutely no clue), and that got her up and into the trailer. Luckily we live in College Station, so it was a short trip . Not everyone has that option though. I'm definitely NO expert regarding cattle, I can only tell you what we went through, and what has worked for us. When I read your post I had to register so I could tell you our experience. You sounded just like we did when we got our girls. This is 'beef' territory, so none of the feed stores or co-ops could give us any information. The minute we say "dairy", they get this look like we just sprouted a second head . I think next time I get that look i'm going to say "you eat CHEESE on your hamburger don't you?" and then just walk away. (Nah, I probably won't... but a girl can dream). We were at a complete loss. A&M has been a wellspring of information. Their large animal 'food animal' vets are amazing. Of course when we go for hoof trimming, etc., all the students have to come and see the 'elusive dairy heifer' .

My husbands best friend lives in Midland. I really like that area, but getting there takes forever . We're trying to convince him to move here to greener pastures (literally). They went to dental school together, and he's the ONLY person my husband trusts to work on his teeth . Where does a dentist go when he needs to go to the dentist? LOL. To his best friend (EIGHT hours away!)

Anyway... best of luck with your little herd.

 

[WildRoseBeef]

We received the following from one of our vets at Texas A&M School of Veterinary Medicine Large Animal Hospital:

"A pelleted or textured feed with 12-15% crude protein is recommended. No more than 2-4 lbs of grain should be fed to each cow daily (1-2lbs per feeding). Free access to hay (coastal and alfalfa hay is recommended) and grass is essential for adequate forage intake. Each animal should be fed at least 1.5% of their body weight in forage per day. For example, a heifer weighing 250 pounds should receive at least 3 pounds of forage (mix of coastal and alfalfa hay) each day. A loose mineral should be provided at all times. During lactation this should be a lactation specific mineral.

As the cows are still growing at this time, it is important to provide a slight excess of forage in order to allow for increases needed with growth. If the animals leave approximately 1% of the feed provided as waste at each feeding this means that they are being fed an ample quantity to fill them up. As the animals are bred, have their calves and begin producing milk it will be of utmost importance to provide ample feed to make up for the extra caloric requirements."

Some great guidelines to follow, but I've always known and been taught that a bovine should be eating around 2 to 2.5% of their body weight of forage per day, but note that (and this wasn't mentioned, but should have been) those percentages are actually on a dry-matter basis, where all the water/moisture is taken out of that feed. As-fed values will be different depending on the moisture content of that feed. For example, new grass tends to have around 90% moisture, hay has around 20% moisture.

We have 3 miniature Jerseys. We feed them a 12% pelleted feed 2x per day, each feeding is followed by a flat of alfalfa (about as much as would loosely fit in a 5 gal bucket) between the 3 of them. They have access to hay 24/7 (we use coastal, timothy, or fescue -we're in Texas) and pasture 24/7 (a winter [now dying out] mix of oats, wheat, and rye grass). The more quality hay (forage) they eat, the better (as long as they get a sufficient amount of protein). They normally will not over eat on hay (unless it's poor quality and they're not being fed properly). They can and will over eat grains and higher protein hay like alfalfa. We do NOT give them high protein hay as free feed. We do give them high quality (ie, horse quality) hay as free feed. Apparently many people feed cows the lower quality hay (with small twigs and things) because they can tolerate it and it is cheaper. We don't do this. Our high quality hay runs about $7/bale. Our alfalfa runs about $14/ compressed bale, but they only get a little alfalfa after each feeding. Too much of this will cause severe bloating. Bloating is caused by bubbles that form. These bubbles can make it difficult for a cow to cough/burp up it's cud. This could get really ugly really fast.

High quality hay/feed is good for dairy cattle, not really a necessity for beef cattle like longhorns and herefords and such unless they're malnourished or underfed. I have to say something about the overfeeding on hay: they can try to eat as much of the hay (assuming poor-quality hay is the subject here) as they can, but the thing is, the lower the quality the hay is the less they'll eat because it will just act as gut-filler, no nutritional value to it at all. They can eat as much as they want, but it won't do anything for them. But, if they've got access to a high-protein supplement, you can bet they'll go all out on that hay and well and truly "over-eat" it, except that it's not really over eating because they're getting sufficient protein already enough to digest that poor-quality hay. It's all because of those microbes in the rumen. I don't know if that makes sense to you, but it's quite interesting how that plays out...

Underfeeding can also be very bad. When we got our calves the woman we bought them from cupped her hands together and said "this much" when we asked how much we should feed them. :/ Was that in the amount of grain or hay? Well, we ended up at the large animal hospital with our oldest (1yr old at the time) about 1 week later. She had to have what's called 'transfaunation'. It's basically a rumen transfusion. She was being underfed (apparently "this much" wasn't enough ) and her rumen became so acidic that all the good 'bugs' in it were dead.

We have a salt block and a mineral block for them, and also give them unchelated kelp powder to lick about 1-2x per week (I just dump about a cup in a pile on top of each mineral block). Our cows also went cuckoo for the pasture when we first brought them home (they had never been on pasture before). Our vets (we have about 4 of them... I could write a book- that's a whole other story) said that most non-cultivated grasses have little nutritional value, so it won't hurt them to eat all they want. They really need to eat hay though. You can spray apple cider vinegar on it if they don't seem interested in it. I know this is long and kind of all over the place, but we got a lot of bad and vague information when we first started, and I wanted to be sure to include the most important things we learned.

I hope that by "non-cultivated grasses" you meant the native grasses, not the tame grasses that grow in a pasture. And yes, for dairy cattle it is considered to have little nutritional value no matter the stage of growth they are in. But for the most part, grazed in the proper stage (i.e., anytime between the initial growth stage and the flowering/inflorescence/heading out stage of grasses [not legumes]) it can be quite nutritional for cattle raised on it and built or "adapted" to practically live off of it.

Nevertheless, it's interesting what sort of feeds, fodders and forages work for what cattle and what don't.

 

[boxofpens]

@wildrosebeef

'this much' was referring to the grain, NOT the hay. We were pretty clueless at the time, but not complete and total idiots

 

[WildRoseBeef]

@wildrosebeef

'this much' was referring to the grain, NOT the hay. We were pretty clueless at the time, but not complete and total idiots

Never intended to mean that at all, I'm just trying to get this figured out so that it makes sense to me. So if that "this much" grain (which would be around one pound, definitely too little even for minis) was fed to them (was that each or all together?) and they were free-fed hay (I assume), most likely poor-quality hay, then how can that heifer have gotten an over-acidic rumen from that? What makes sense to me is that the only way a bovine can get highly acidic rumen is from feeding only grain and/or too much grain with little to no roughage to balance things out. "This much" grain alone won't cause that, so it had to be something else that lady you bought those calves from that caused that one heifer to have to get a transfaunation. Or...maybe you went and over-fed those calves seeing that they were in poor shape when you got them. I mean no offense at all, and if I did I apologize, but again I'm just trying to figure this out so that it makes sense in my head.



So you're feeding them this:

12% CP pelleted feed
A "flat" (more commonly known as a "flake") of alfalfa hay
Free-fed grass "horse-quality" hay
Salt block
Mineral block
Unchelated kelp powder
Low-quality pasture

With the amount of roughage they're getting, I really wouldn't worry about overfeeding on grain or alfalfa, especially alfalfa. You should be worrying more about them bloating on too much alfalfa if that alfalfa is fresh, pre-bloom and they're grazing it a) when their hungry and b) during the mornings and evenings. Haying this legume tends to decrease the bloat-risk factor--though it's still there, no doubt--because it tends to be more stemmy, adding to the fibre content. You yourself have decreased it further by the addition of rough pasture (or poor-quality pasture) and horse-quality hay. IMHO, you've got a higher risk of bloat if you over-do the pellets, not the alfalfa.

Anyway, not to pick apart what you're doing with them--which is great, and right by all means--just giving you some information that may help in the long run in your future decisions for these animals. You're doing good, they're in the right hands, and I'm happy to hear that.

 

[started*with*chickens]

I'm so glad that they all seem to be doing better. Keep an eye on the bull. Our heifer went down within 48 hours. The first sign was loose poop, then not chewing her cud or eating/drinking. We had one of our vets out twice before he called A&M and sent us over. She was so bad that my husband was able to roll her over on her back with all four legs in the air trying to get her to get up so we could load her in the trailer to take her to A&M. We finally shook a bucket with some textured sweet feed (which we found out later made her condition worse --we had absolutely no clue), and that got her up and into the trailer. Luckily we live in College Station, so it was a short trip . Not everyone has that option though. I'm definitely NO expert regarding cattle, I can only tell you what we went through, and what has worked for us. When I read your post I had to register so I could tell you our experience. You sounded just like we did when we got our girls. This is 'beef' territory, so none of the feed stores or co-ops could give us any information. The minute we say "dairy", they get this look like we just sprouted a second head . I think next time I get that look i'm going to say "you eat CHEESE on your hamburger don't you?" and then just walk away. (Nah, I probably won't... but a girl can dream). We were at a complete loss. A&M has been a wellspring of information. Their large animal 'food animal' vets are amazing. Of course when we go for hoof trimming, etc., all the students have to come and see the 'elusive dairy heifer' .

My husbands best friend lives in Midland. I really like that area, but getting there takes forever . We're trying to convince him to move here to greener pastures (literally). They went to dental school together, and he's the ONLY person my husband trusts to work on his teeth . Where does a dentist go when he needs to go to the dentist? LOL. To his best friend (EIGHT hours away!)

Anyway... best of luck with your little herd.

Thank you! We are orignally from the Hill Country (Marble Falls) so needless to say we miss the green grass and green trees of home! I also worked as a receptionist at a dentist office before we moved up here and I go 'back home' when we need cleanings/work done (It's a little closer than your trip at only 5 hours) so I understand where your husband is coming from!

 

[started*with*chickens]

I'm starting to think the feed we have them on isn't what we should be using but I'm really not sure what to switch to. We are using http://www.nutrenaworld.com/products/beef-cattle/textured-beef-feed/index.htm We are paying around $13/bag. Is this feed something we should 'stick with' or is there something else we should be using? I don't mind how much we are paying but it seems like a lot when I think of someone with standard cattle and how quickly it would add up for them so it stands to reason there's something I'm missing! I still need to pick up loose minerals but everyone here has been sick so maybe tomorrow...

 

[BrownSheep]

I'm so glad that they all seem to be doing better. Keep an eye on the bull. Our heifer went down within 48 hours. The first sign was loose poop, then not chewing her cud or eating/drinking. We had one of our vets out twice before he called A&M and sent us over. She was so bad that my husband was able to roll her over on her back with all four legs in the air trying to get her to get up so we could load her in the trailer to take her to A&M. We finally shook a bucket with some textured sweet feed (which we found out later made her condition worse --we had absolutely no clue), and that got her up and into the trailer. Luckily we live in College Station, so it was a short trip . Not everyone has that option though. I'm definitely NO expert regarding cattle, I can only tell you what we went through, and what has worked for us. When I read your post I had to register so I could tell you our experience. You sounded just like we did when we got our girls. This is 'beef' territory, so none of the feed stores or co-ops could give us any information. The minute we say "dairy", they get this look like we just sprouted a second head . I think next time I get that look i'm going to say "you eat CHEESE on your hamburger don't you?" and then just walk away. (Nah, I probably won't... but a girl can dream). We were at a complete loss. A&M has been a wellspring of information. Their large animal 'food animal' vets are amazing. Of course when we go for hoof trimming, etc., all the students have to come and see the 'elusive dairy heifer' .

My husbands best friend lives in Midland. I really like that area, but getting there takes forever . We're trying to convince him to move here to greener pastures (literally). They went to dental school together, and he's the ONLY person my husband trusts to work on his teeth . Where does a dentist go when he needs to go to the dentist? LOL. To his best friend (EIGHT hours away!)

Anyway... best of luck with your little herd.

I find this hysterical just because I live in the middle of mega dairy land! The majority of our large animal vets are just for dairy heifers.

 

[boxofpens]

I'm starting to think the feed we have them on isn't what we should be using but I'm really not sure what to switch to. We are using http://www.nutrenaworld.com/products/beef-cattle/textured-beef-feed/index.htm We are paying around $13/bag. Is this feed something we should 'stick with' or is there something else we should be using? I don't mind how much we are paying but it seems like a lot when I think of someone with standard cattle and how quickly it would add up for them so it stands to reason there's something I'm missing! I still need to pick up loose minerals but everyone here has been sick so maybe tomorrow...

Do you have a veterinarian for them yet? If not, maybe you can call a few of the local large animal vets and see if their staff can give you any info over the phone that might point you in the right direction. They'll be more familiar with what's available in Odessa and what seems to work best for cattle in your area. Much more so than anyone on this forum (regardless of the textbook quips that get thrown out around here). Unless of course, they're from West TX . The grasses in your area are unique to your area, the minerals in the water, etc. Our vets around here will come out to your property for a very reasonable fee. From what I've seen of Midland, it's pretty dry, and it looks as pretty barren. If folks are selling off their cattle around there, you might find a vet that's more than happy to make a field call to get a new client. Or... I could be WAY off base :/. Either way, it doesn't hurt to make a few calls. If the person who answers is a toot, just thank them and call another one. You could even try some in Midland or Big Spring. Ya never know.