bottle baby questions

[Robyn8]

I have 2 bottle fed Nigerian Dwarfs. They are just over 9 weeks now. We've had them 2 weeks. They came from a local dairy and are both doing great but I have few questions.

#1: I'm having trouble weaning them. They were getting 3 bottles a day of about 10-12 oz when we brought them home at a little over 7 weeks. I'm trying to get rid of the middle of the day bottle but they cry terribly around that time of day. I have tried making the am bottles a little bigger...more like 14 oz, which they easily finish, and I have tried adding new hay around that time (even if they still have plenty as they seem to not want to eat the old hay). They do eat the hay, but I don't know if it's enough to keep them full. Should I try adding some grain? We have 18% lamb feed that we are giving our 4H lambs, so can I use that? Or do I just need to "toughen up" and deal with the crying? they don't drink much water but I have seen both drink water at least once so I think they kind of get it.

#2: Minerals. When do I need to offer minerals? We intend to keep them with Shetland lambs we are getting in August, so eventually we will need to bolus them with minerals or at least copper, I think. I have heard from some people that keep goats and sheep together that they offer everyone sheep minerals and bolus their goats with copper, so that's what I was planning to do. Does anyone on here do that? If so where do you get just copper? and how much do you give the goats?

Thanks for your help!

 

[Hens and Roos]

Tagging a few that have experience with bottle kids @Goat Whisperer @Southern by choice @Wehner Homestead @babsbag

 

[Southern by choice]

I do not recommend you keeping them together. Bolusing with copper is not adequate. For much of the US even with feed fortified with copper and natural forage it isn't enough so not having daily copper is not healthy for them. Lamb feed is not adequate for goats. Goats need certain daily nutrients. We have had sheep and goats. Dairy goats needs are quite different. In the same way you don't want to harm the sheep by giving copper when they have a storage issue you don't want to harm your goats by not giving what they need.
Minerals should have already been introduced as well as feed. By 3 weeks goats will start to nibble feed. Minerals should generally be available 24/7.
Our Sheep were primitive breed and do not have the same storage issues so they actually could have the same feed as my goats, however over time especially during breeding season the sheep started ramming the goats. At risk of our dairy goats aborting we moved the sheep to their own field. Angora goats and sheep seem to do very well together but not most dairy breeds.

As far as the bottles. Just cut the second feeding out. So what if they cry... they need to be weaned. By 8 weeks if a good healthy weight and they are Nigerians they can be fully weaned off all milk. With bucklings you have to because they must be separated so they don't breed their sisters. At this point I would cut the middle feeding out and half the two other feedings. Then go to one morning bottle only. Then none.

 

[Robyn8]

I do not recommend you keeping them together. Bolusing with copper is not adequate. For much of the US even with feed fortified with copper and natural forage it isn't enough so not having daily copper is not healthy for them. Lamb feed is not adequate for goats. Goats need certain daily nutrients. We have had sheep and goats. Dairy goats needs are quite different. In the same way you don't want to harm the sheep by giving copper when they have a storage issue you don't want to harm your goats by not giving what they need.
Minerals should have already been introduced as well as feed. By 3 weeks goats will start to nibble feed. Minerals should generally be available 24/7.
Our Sheep were primitive breed and do not have the same storage issues so they actually could have the same feed as my goats, however over time especially during breeding season the sheep started ramming the goats. At risk of our dairy goats aborting we moved the sheep to their own field. Angora goats and sheep seem to do very well together but not most dairy breeds.

As far as the bottles. Just cut the second feeding out. So what if they cry... they need to be weaned. By 8 weeks if a good healthy weight and they are Nigerians they can be fully weaned off all milk. With bucklings you have to because they must be separated so they don't breed their sisters. At this point I would cut the middle feeding out and half the two other feedings. Then go to one morning bottle only. Then none.

Thank you for your response. We have wethers now and do not plan to breed anyone. We are getting a wether and ewe lamb. So pregnancy and breeding will not be an issue. Maybe that will make it more feasible to keep them together?

I know people do keep them together and while I do appreciate your advice we don't have the set up right now to keep them separate. We could split the pasture and tiny barn if we had to but I'd rather try and make it work. We planned to build the goats an elevated loft bed in the tiny barn (it's 12ft x 8ft).

can you clarify what you mean about your sheep being primative? Ours will be shetlands which I thought was a primitive breed. Does that make a difference as far as feed goes?

I had asked the farmer we got them from about grain and she was of the opinion that our wethers really won't need much grain at all and adviced me to give it as a treat. That's why I thought the lamb feed would be ok. Of course I understand there are many ways of doing things.

If anyone keeps sheep and goats together I'd appreciate your thoughts. We'll just have 2 of each and all the boys will be wethers.

 

[Southern by choice]

Here is a really good article on Urinary Calculi which happens more with wethers than intact bucks, but can affect all goats especially males.
http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/SP/MG/Documents/SLIDES/Urinary calculi.pdf

The key is moderation of grain. Maybe a cup to 1 1/2 cups per day- this helps maintain a healthy balanced diet. You really want ammonium chloride in the feed and do not give baking soda free choice. This is a big mistake far too many make. It renders the ammonium chloride useless.
The Calcium : Phosphorus ratio needs to be a minimum of 2:1 up to 4:1. So look at your lamb feed. If you have a tag and can post a pic that would be great.
Of course calcium depletes zinc so you must have a balance with that as well.

Many do try and keep sheep and goats together and although I appreciate the wanting to, I don't understand the bringing in two wethers that really can't "do" anything but be ornaments. Not being able to adequately provide their nutritional requirements is never a good situation. I don't mean that snarky or nasty in anyway.
In the same way why would someone put sheep in a situation where they could die from copper toxicity why take a goat and have if die from copper deficiency? Adequate levels of copper are necessary for keeping parasites in check. I just think this is something to keep in mind and take a look at. We don't sell goats to anyone that plans on keeping them with sheep because we know the outcome. Again, not being nasty... just something to think about for the future.

The breed of sheep we had were Jacobs.

 

[Robyn8]

I know you're not trying to be snarky and just trying to help. And I'm just trying to learn. The purpose of us getting 2 wethers that don't do anything is strictly as pasture ornaments as you said. We just want them for fun. They are pets. Nothing more than that. The sheep will also be pets. Pets that give me some wool and that's it. Here's a pic of th lamb feed we give our 4h lambs. I'm not opposed to buying goat feed but since I wanted to try to keep them together I figured giving everyone lamb feed was safest.

Oh and the 4 h lambs will be separate from the others in case anyone asks about that.

I have read good things about a slow release copper bolus meant for goats. It says it lasts 8-12 months but people recommend giving it more like every 6 months. Anyone use that?

https://www.walmart.com/ip/UltraCruz

Not sure my link will work but it's Ultracruz copper bolus for goats.

 

[Southern by choice]

It's important to know the values.
% of Calcium, phosphorus, cobalt, Vitamins, Selenium etc. There are no values listed so I cannot tell you much. It shows no selenium (unless I missed it)
Like I said, a bolus only goes so far. We have dairy goats and their feed is fortified with copper, our land is adequate copper, and their minerals have copper and we still have to give a bolus.
We do have issues with high iron here and that can bind the copper. So there is that. My friend just had her hay tested. Super high in copper. But she has other issues with iron and molybedum so the goats look deficient but deficiency can also look like toxicity. That is the hard part. Next wether they put in the freezer they are going to take the liver and have it tested. It is the only true way to determine copper levels.

Maybe you can just have a gate or something on the shelter to where you can just separate them for feeding. The fact that they wolf their feed down in minutes shouldn't take much time.
LOL We have a bajillion goats and there are a few we have to separate for "extra TLC" it doesn't take long.

I would ask sheep folk what they think of this feed. It appears to be a "finisher feed". The high corn level would indicate to me it is a feed for fattening for slaughter.

If you have really good hay as well as forage you may not need the feed, but the mineral will still be an issue. It isn't just the copper. Goats need selenium, thiamine, A, D, E and cobalt. Most feeds that list cobalt but have no value for it just means it is so insignificant that it really has no value.

Alot of sheep won't "climb" so maybe having the loft and climbing areas would be your solution! That would be pretty cool!

We recently switched to a different mineral as the ones we have used have just not adequately filled the requirements of our goats.

We had used Manna Pro Goat Mineral, then we switched to Sweet Lix, they hated the sweetlix. Now we use this- Weathershed- This is a cattle mineral so we don't feed as much per head but it is working well for us.

 

[Wehner Homestead]

X2 to what Southern says.

-wean at 8-12 weeks for Nigerians. (Bucklings at 8 weeks, Doeling can be 12 weeks.) Cold turkey will work just fine. I weaned two Lamancha bottle babies a few weeks ago. They were on 2 a day bottles. Stopped night bottle for a week. Then just stopped morning bottle. They cried a little and still do but it’s more that they want my attention and don’t constantly search for their bottle. Weaned two bucklings two nights ago. (They were separated from their dam for 8 hrs each night anyway so I could milk her.) I just pulled them that night and didn’t put them back the next day.

-I have much more goat experience than I do sheep. I do know that their nutritional requirements are actually very different and that most people that keep both, don’t keep them together if they’ve actually done their research and provide the proper nutrition. We have not owned sheep since I was young so I have never had the two on a farm at the same time. I do know enough that to try, you’d have to be prepared.

-I am going to tag a couple of sheep people so that they’ll see this post and weigh in. @secuono @Mike CHS @Baymule

-I’m also going to tag one person that kept both. She hasn’t been on lately but maybe she will get on and weigh in. @misfitmorgan

 

[Latestarter]

They are old enough now that you can stop bottle feeding altogether and wean them straight off. They'll cry for a few days but will get over it. Since they are still young, I would be feeding them a pelleted goat feed in addition to the hay to aid in their continued growth. Start with small amounts twice a day and increase over time. Are they male? female? I see above it mentioned that they are wethers. So, you want to pay close attention to the calcium/phosphorus balance. It should be at least 2:1 up to 4:1 to prevent urinary calculi (UC). Sheep need copper as well but much less than what a goat needs. At goat need levels, copper is toxic to sheep. They should be getting minerals/have them available as soon as they are weaned.

I know @goatgurl keeps goats and sheep together and feed sheep minerals to all then boluses the goats for copper. You can buy copper boluses from many online sources.
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/copasure-for-lamb-and-kids-2-grams-24-capsules 2 gram capsules since you have (young as well as) dwarf goats
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/copasure-for-sheep-and-goats-4-gram-12-capsules 4 gram capsules, (what I use for my full sized goats.)

How often will depend on your soils and feed mineral content. The site says 4gram/100pounds. I have high iron content soils which binds the copper, so mine need more. and that's on top of the copper in their minerals.

 

[secuono]

All I can add is I agree sheep aren't much for climbing and jumping, especially if its steep or too high of a jump. But breed and if there's food reward up there, they may get up there.

Haven't had many bottle baby lambs, don't own goats, but I wean them off their moms cold turkey. Crying is normal, but going back to feed is just rewarding the crying and makes it worse.
Do they have pasture to graze along with the hay?
My lambs have minerals available all the time, I've seen 3wk olds nibble it.
My vet said goat wethers are more likely to get stones than sheep wethers, so I wouldn't use actual grains to feed them.