Breed Recommendations

[Wehner Homestead]

Hi! I'm new to BYH. We live on 42 acres in S IN. Our predators are coyotes, the black buzzards (the ones that will kill live animals), roaming dogs, opossum, skunks, raccoons, and the occasional rodent. We do know that the occasional bear, mountain lion, and bobcat has been spotted around us. We've lived here for 8 years now and had a LGD the majority of that time. We raise, Nigerian Dwarf Goats, show Cattle, feeder pigs, chicken for meat and eggs, and have 2 horses, several pet dogs, and barn cats. We also have three young children.

We started with a GP male, Logan. He was wonderful! He slept on the porch and watched the whole farm (people and animals.) This was his domain and people didn't get out of vehicles and we watched him physically run coyotes off the farm once. He was very loving and hugs were his fave. I could never do the hands off! He was four and had to be put down due to a torn ligament in his knee that was going to require a painful surgery and extensive recovery. I couldn't put him through that pain and keep him in a cage. He would've hated it. I miss him dearly. While he was still young, we wanted a farm dog/sidekick for him that might also help with herding and rodent control. We got an English shepherd dog, Lana. They were inseparable. They were always together and made an amazing team. She's been depressed since Logan passed almost four years ago. We also discovered that she's deathly terrified by storms and gun shots after he died.

We then got another GP male, praying that he would be very similar to Logan in every way possible. Cooper or Coop was a great dog but he never bonded to his humans like Logan did. Despite neutering at 6 mos, he took to wandering the countryside at the age of 2 and did stints in doggy jail and numerous people's homes that found him. One of his favorite places to go was a crazy busy highway intersection that is more than two miles through the woods from our farm. We discovered that he didn't mind being shocked by our high tensile electric fence and would just walk right through it. We then kenneled him and he hated it. We ended up rehoming him to some friends that had lost their LGD to old age and had coyotes getting their chickens right outside their house. They have woven wire. Coop has been there almost a year and hasn't gotten out yet. Lana never bonded with Coop.

We then began our search for another LGD. We couldn't find another male GP pup. We found a Karakachan/GP pup. I just didn't bond with him when I met him so we backed out on buying him.

A doctor that I work with had a litter of Anatolians. I had researched them but wasn't convinced on having a dog that could be so headstrong around my children. He encouraged me to come meet the litter and his dogs before I declined. I have some experience with personality and confirmation testing so I worked with each of the 11 pups. Two of them met my criteria and my daughter insisted on the female. We named her Queenie. She's been an awesome dog thus far. She's not quite 6 mos old but follows commands well. Has already taken to finding somewhere to lay and survey her property. We had a few alpha battles but she now respects my husband and I, even following the commands of our kids. Queenie is going to be a very big girl and I think she's going to be great!

We don't have issues with any of the pest type predators coming near the house or barns due to our other dogs (German Shepherd in house, 2 Australian Shepherds, a Standard Poodle, and a Goldendoodle that are all kenneled at night.)

Our concerns are that the coyotes got brave during calving and were entering our pastures. The buzzards were also a problems. Our cows actually calved in the herd this year!

We know we need another LGD to work with Queenie. I know that another female Anatolian is discouraged by many. Queenie is scheduled to be spayed in Jan. (I don't want to deal with her being down and worrying about our land while she is pregnant and cares for pups.) I'm leaning toward another male GP but wondered what others suggest. I have also considered a Karakachan. What would each of you recommend?

Note: We've been putting our goats in the barn at night and only calve in Feb/March/April each year. The chicken coops are between the house and barn, offering that extra protection.

 

[Southern by choice]

If you like the breeder and are pleased with the dog then you should go back to the breeder.
I love Anatolians. I love Pyr/Toli crosses. I love Pyrs.
Of course there are many issues with pyrs... so the toli pyr crosses are only as good ad their parent stock.

How much land are you on?

 

[Wehner Homestead]

If you like the breeder and are pleased with the dog then you should go back to the breeder.
I love Anatolians. I love Pyr/Toli crosses. I love Pyrs.
Of course there are many issues with pyrs... so the toli pyr crosses are only as good ad their parent stock.

How much land are you on?

We have 42 acres.

Newbie so I'm assuming "toli" is short for Anatolian?

 

[Southern by choice]

If you are utilizing the 42 acres I would say you are severely underdogged.
Two dogs cannot cover and protect/defend that much territory.
Of course it is different if you have 42 acres but have 5-7 acres paddocked off for the livestock.

Yes, Toli for short.

 

[Wehner Homestead]

If you are utilizing the 42 acres I would say you are severely underdogged.
Two dogs cannot cover and protect/defend that much territory.
Of course it is different if you have 42 acres but have 5-7 acres paddocked off for the livestock.

Yes, Toli for short.

The majority of our livestock are on about 20 of those acres. Part of the other area is a hayfield and the other part is a pasture that we mow for hay and use to winter our bull and one cow to keep him company. That pasture is next to the house and borders two fairly busy county roads.

 

[Latestarter]

Just jumping in to offer a hearty welcome to BYH. Glad you joined us and hope you'll share some pics when you get a chance. So sorry you lost your first Pyr and then had to re-home the 2nd. Hope you find just the right match to partner with Queenie. Browse around and make yourself at home.

 

[farmerjan]

Although I am basically a newer member, I think that SBC is one of the best on here to give you advice on LGD's. We do not use them due to many rented places, and neighbors that we have trouble with that won't leave the dogs to do their jobs and want to feed them and have called the dog warden about how we mistreat them and all sorts of stuff. We don't have the fences for keeping them in on rented land and it just doesn't work for us. But reading all the different ones that have them and love them I would think that you did good with them and so it is a good choice for you. There is another thread about them and using them for goats in the part of Calf., where they graze the goats as brush control; against BIG predators.
I have to say that what little I know, if you like the one you got, why would you not go back to them for a second? And once your female is spayed, there won't be as much of an issue of 2 females getting along as if they were intact and competing for dominance. So if you are still concerned, why not a male? You will probably have it neutered, so maybe that would be a better choice.
From what I have been reading lately, it seems that many people are "underdogged". As dogs can be destructive in a pack, it seems that they can also be well supported in a "pack" if they are doing the job that they were taught and bred for. We run llamas, and donkeys with our sheep and had a gelding llama with out first calf heifers for a couple of years. He was VERY protective of the new baby calves with each new calf crop. Not mean, not aggressive, but if a calf hollered for mamma, man he was right there to make sure everything was okay.
I have had german shepards in the past, and often found that 2 together would be much more effective at being a protector than one. Once they were trained and being that I had good fences to keep them within "my yard=their space"

 

[BrendaMNgri]

OK therein lies the key: FENCING. Please before you get going on breed shopping, fence your place appropriately so that what ever you end up stays safe and predators stay out. Don't lay it all on the dogs.
LGDs should never be run solo.
Finally, it is not the breed as much as it is the breeder. Don't buy from anyone who can't promise and deliver support, good advice, and shows you they have the expertise and experience required. Somewhere on this page is a post I put up about an article I wrote for Goat Journal about finding a good LGD breeder. Read it. Or if the Admins jerked the article and/or link down to my blog, I guess I better put the blog link up under my signature or something so you can find it. Be honest with yourself about your capacity to own and handle LGD breeds and understand some are more intense than others.
There is a reason why Great Pyrenees are the most popular LGD breed in America. They are wonderful loving dogs with a lot of "oops" room what I mean by that, they are not highly complex or edgy or temperamental as some LGD breeds are. Understand as well some of the more newer exotic breeds being brought over here and introduced come from fighting, military and police backgrounds in their native countries and through breeding for that now have lost some of their guardian/livestock instincts. Shop carefully if you go that route.
And fence, fence, fence. Don't lay it all on the dogs.
20 acres is too much for one dog to patrol alone - run a pair at the minimum and think about cross fencing as well.
Not to sound like an echo but don't lay this all on the dogs. They are not going to fix all problems.

 

[Wehner Homestead]

OK therein lies the key: FENCING. Please before you get going on breed shopping, fence your place appropriately so that what ever you end up stays safe and predators stay out. Don't lay it all on the dogs.
LGDs should never be run solo.
Finally, it is not the breed as much as it is the breeder. Don't buy from anyone who can't promise and deliver support, good advice, and shows you they have the expertise and experience required. Somewhere on this page is a post I put up about an article I wrote for Goat Journal about finding a good LGD breeder. Read it. Or if the Admins jerked the article and/or link down to my blog, I guess I better put the blog link up under my signature or something so you can find it. Be honest with yourself about your capacity to own and handle LGD breeds and understand some are more intense than others.
There is a reason why Great Pyrenees are the most popular LGD breed in America. They are wonderful loving dogs with a lot of "oops" room what I mean by that, they are not highly complex or edgy or temperamental as some LGD breeds are. Understand as well some of the more newer exotic breeds being brought over here and introduced come from fighting, military and police backgrounds in their native countries and through breeding for that now have lost some of their guardian/livestock instincts. Shop carefully if you go that route.
And fence, fence, fence. Don't lay it all on the dogs.
20 acres is too much for one dog to patrol alone - run a pair at the minimum and think about cross fencing as well.
Not to sound like an echo but don't lay this all on the dogs. They are not going to fix all problems.

I'm going to try to address everything.
1) Please post the link to that article, I love to learn.
2) The 20 acres that is the main area is actually 5 different areas with access to the barn by an alley. Our fences are mostly high tensile five strand with bottom, middle and top wire hot. Anywhere that isn't high tensile is either a gate or woven wire (a few areas for goat kid safety.) All of our other dogs respect the fence. When Coop was escaping, I literally watched him hit the hot wires that would be low and middle on his way out. I could see that he was getting shocked but he wanted out so bad that he didn't care. For his safety and my peace of mind, he was rehomed. I didn't have a setup for him at the time and he HATED being kenneled. Cooper got to where he wouldn't even stay home if I had him in the yard with me. He would sneak off.
3) I'm trying not to expect too much of Queenie or put her in harms way at this time. She's not quite 5 mos old and I couldn't handle anything happening to her. We lock the goats in the barn at night so she is in a large pen immediately between the buck and does. She hasn't shown signs of getting rough with them but she still has puppy tendencies so I want to make sure her actions are monitored. We also just got some new does that are terrified of dogs so it's an adjustment and introduction process for them too. During the day, she has free access to the alley, barn, and yard. I'm hoping to integrate her into the doe area after the first of the year if she and the does show me that they are all ready.
4) I have quite a bit of dog training experience in obedience and issues with rescue dogs. I have worked with our dogs to make them meet the standards I require. Are there times that I wish I could spend more time training them, yes! On the other hand, none of my dogs are out of control and Queenie can enter any pen with me and assists me in many of my chores. She has learned to "read" the cows under my careful direction.
5) My first Pyr taught me that breeder support is important. She "forgot" to send his shot records with me and never answered my calls after she got her money. I still talk to the breeder of my second Pyr. I'm actually on her list to get another male, she just has had all females or her bitches didn't breed this year (we now have a plan to keep a Pyr from wandering because our buck area is set up with that in mind.) Queenie's breeder is someone I work with. I can contact them as much as I want. Getting another from them isn't an option any time soon as a neighbor poisoned their male and they haven't replaced him yet.
6) I am currently talking to several Karakachan breeders trying to learn more about that breed. I really want to find a dog that fits our variety, children, and isn't prone to wandering. Several of these breeders have a lot in common with us from their websites and fb pages. I look forward to building a lifelong relationship with them.

 

[Wehner Homestead]

If you are utilizing the 42 acres I would say you are severely underdogged.
Two dogs cannot cover and protect/defend that much territory.
Of course it is different if you have 42 acres but have 5-7 acres paddocked off for the livestock.

Yes, Toli for short.

I originally responded but want to ask you if you could tell me about your operation.