Choosing an LGD puppy

[Southern by choice]

Well my internet went down in the middle of filling out 6 pages of paperwork at 1am! just before the last page was completed.
It has been out almost all day. I can't do the phone thingy- my eyes can't even see the screen to read! Anyway maybe it won't crap out on me again...

So... let me just say... I have been in dogs for a very long time. I do not get into the my breed is better than your breed BS. I also don't get into the Anatolian/Kangal BS.
If you feel the Anatolian is

Anatolians are mixes of many Turkish LGD's so think of that type but without irresponsible breedings so more even temperaments FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN.

you can feel that way. I was smitten with the Anatolian since 1990! Often, and I am sure you've seen me post many times. I dissuade people from looking at the "different". With good reason. Many that are looking to get their first LGD yet have zero experience most of the time will do better with sticking with the easier breeds. The Toli and the Pyr. I hear far too often "I want something different" some also have that resounding ring of "something BAD-A$$" when they say they want something "different". As with many breeds once AKC gets in the mix (IMO) many go downhill.
I just roll my eyes when Kangal breeders get highly insulted that someone just called their dog an Anatolian.

I'm sorry- just much of it gets stupid.

As far as my question about breed. I asked simply because the Pyrenees is the absolute easiest to evaluate. Most have distinct observable traits it is easy to know their strength.

Your Pup is beautiful!

So, setting the other stuff aside... I was going to mention my hesitancy on getting a pup that is not coming from a livestock farm.
Without verifying the parent stock are actually LIVESTOCK guardians IMO that is a great risk. To take that a step further, it isn't enough to come from livestock guardian parents but they must be successful. You would think this is a no brainer yet people actually breed dogs that FAILED as a LGD, dogs that attack livestock, can't be trusted with lambs/kids... it gets nuts.

I know this can tick some people off but I'll say it anyway- (actually I am copy pasting from my So You Want To Breed article that I still have not finished or published)

You will see many that pay big money for dogs and those who pay little... that $ you spent either way guarantees you nothing. There are those that have 4-6 bitches keep them bred all the time sell their dogs for big money with beautiful facilities yet guess what not one dog have they ever trained. Not one dog is safe with poultry, never with kids/lambs or during kidding/lambing... hmmm what does this tell you? Breeders that cannot evaluate do these dogs no favors. There is a difference between selecting a dog as a companion and a dog/s on 100 acres as well as a dog for the small family farm. ....

Imports- oooooo so you have imports big deal. The reason I am a bit sarcastic about this is because most dogs imported to the US are dogs that they would never breed in their own country of origin! IOW everyone else in the world knows that Americans are “impressed” with imports and will pay BIG $ for them. I shake my head... American Pride is what those exporting dogs are looking for.*

Now, keep in mind I do not condemn imports, there are many great breeders and many great dogs imported yet there are so many that are not.

I always question dog "brokers".

If this is your passion, and the breed you choose I won't condemn you I do agree with @BrendaMNgri with why I would be cautious. I also feel she has a good deal of valuable info in regard to this breed. I also agree with the statement about will the breeder be there to help you. What happens if things do not work out. Will the breeder allow you to return the dog? Probably not possible.

My real question is this.... if you have a good bit of land and you are having to move dogs to protect the most valuable stock and you have a significant predator load why not spend the financial resources you do have and invest that in an already trained or started pack of dogs.
Genetics play a part, of course, but great dogs are made as well.
I am a big believer in the first 8 weeks being very important. I also think a breeder should know their dogs well enough to place their dogs appropriately. IMO a really good litter will have consistent temperament.


Now, on a personal note. Yes LGD's often end up a hot topic and there are so many issues ... truly that is why I ignore forums, fb sites and the whole lot of it when it comes to LGD's. We have had some issues here as well but for the most part this forum is generally just more supportive and ultimately I think people care about each other here.

What age will they ship? At what point do you need to "pick".

 

[Baymule]

Kimber is a beautiful girl. If she grows to those feet you are going to have a Livestock Guard Elephant!

 

[dejavoodoo114]

@BrendaMNgri, I noticed when you joined this group (honestly, I wasn’t exactly thrilled…) and knowing who you were my remarks were aimed at you. I had a feeling you wouldn’t be able to resist but since you were polite I will be so as well. I already knew you were one of the first to bring one in and I know what happened. Goodness, you have it on just about every LGD site out there. Google Boz and your info and story comes up. I do hope, that as far as things go on My threads, this will be the end of it. Your story is on here and mine as well.


I will start with how I found out about the Boz. As I said earlier, we were already looking at a different breed of LGD. Before Wesson got sick we had narrowed it down to Akbash, Kangals, or Anatolians (in the order that we liked them from research only online). When Wesson got sick I started contacting Akbash breeders. I spoke to 3 who seemed reasonable from their websites and had no bad reviews. After speaking to all three of them we realized the Akbash, while awesome, would in no way work for us and our farm.

On to the Kangals… I spoke to one breeder who gave me bad vibes, wasn’t going to even consider her one of the 3. Talked to another, yes they had Kangals in their pack but they no longer bred them they bred Boz. (Naturally, I asked what the heck Boz were?!) But I am rather meticulous so I found another Kangal breeder and called. Once again, they switched to Boz. I didn’t bother calling another Kangal breeder at this point. Instead I did the intense online research I had done for the other breeds on the Boz. That is when I saw your whole story, believe me, I doubt there is anything you have posted about this that I haven’t seen if it is still up.


Naturally, I was confused that these people were using “fighting dogs” as LGDs successfully. I also noticed that your stories were about what happened 10 years ago. And there are A LOT of people using Boz as LGDs successfully today. I believe you were right. That they may have been intended for dog fighting. I don’t know if law enforcement helped change their minds or what. What I do KNOW is that they really are great LGDs. I believe you are one of the reasons the Boz we have now are so much better. Without you making such a fuss things may not have changed. Akin surely had no choice but to change. Thanks for that as we now get superb dogs! (Nothing you said on here is new to me, btw)


Also, as mentioned before I went to a few farms to see the Boz in action (your story made the a must even though we drove long distances, we would have done so for one of the other breeds as well if they were close enough but HAD to for the Boz). One had Boz, Kangal, and Boz/Kangal mixes. The differences were blatantly obvious. We had been looking at Kangal/Boz crosses but after seeing them all together we decided that we would only get a pure Boz. Despite their being a little too friendly towards strangers they fit our situation the best. (Don’t get me wrong, I like the Kangals still and if our farm were set up differently we would have gone with the Kangals because (or so I have seen and been told) they are not as friendly towards strangers. I really liked how intense they were but we were worried about liability issues. I have suggested them for many people who have asked me about the Boz. People are one of the predators we must deal with here but we have our Pyr Smith to keep watch on that front. (only thing he is good for and he is good at it)


Ok, I am going to post this and answer your questions and comments about the pup we will be getting in a separate post.

 

[dejavoodoo114]

I didn’t quite understand the reference to problems within my pack… My sick pyr, Wesson, went after coyotes when he is no longer able to fight them and got chewed up pretty bad. This happened because he got away from us before we could put him back in the pasture with Kimber (Boz pup who weighs 103 compared to Wesson’s 86 lbs) and the goats.

This is a picture of Kimber tonight showing her submissiveness to Wesson after dinner.

This is Kimber a few weeks ago when she sniffed the cat and the cat was… well… a cat. LOL! Kimber dropped so hard we could hear her knees hit the tile… Ouch!

Yes, this breeder seems a bit strange. But a lot of people cook for their dogs (not me, no time)… I was wondering if this would spoil him too much. Now that I am typing this I think the best move will be to ask the breeder to gradually switch him to kibble before he arrives.


As far as breeder support, I have full support from Kimber’s breeder and health guarantee. I have the health guarantee from the male pup’s breeder as well. But for advice I would probably go to one of 5 people I know quite well who own Boz as LGDs. The reason, as previously stated, for getting this pup is timing. With Wesson chewed up by coyotes and the large loss of chickens, I want a working pack of LGDs sooner rather than later.

 

[Bruce]

All other things aside, I would definitely see if the breeder will switch the dog you want to the kibble you use. Even if you have to provide it. The less change once he gets to you the better.

 

[Southern by choice]

Ok, I was thinking you had a lot of land and needed a considerable amount of dogs. I misunderstood.
I believe you know what your farm needs.

Still so sad about Wesson. Just heartbreaking.

As you know, I will support you on whatever you do. You have never struck me as whimsical or getting sucked up into the "bada$$" mentality.
I am so glad you will have support.

Gosh if you were closer I'd lend you a few dogs to get you through.
I am very glad to hear your Kimber is doing so well!

 

[Bruce]

Heck @Southern by choice, East Tennessee is right next door to North Carolina!

 

[dejavoodoo114]

@Southern by choice, I just saw your post! In no way did I mean to imply anything bad about Anatolians by saying the “irresponsible” breeding part. What I meant was that there are so many breeders that I was worried about getting a good one (not like Smith..). (I am probably digging myself a bigger hole, I do better speaking than writing. I can never remember to lighten things up so I come across rude instead of serious) My husband and I have talked for the last two years about buying one of YOUR started LGDs. Worth the cost without a doubt.


Why are Pyrenees the easiest to evaluate?


I thank you for your other input. They would ship at 8 weeks unless I ask her to keep him longer. I will pick when I am ready. She is in the process of getting chickens (bigger livestock will not be there till later) but even the chickens may not come in time.


For us, getting the Boz was not about status but about the pretty even temperaments across the breed (here that I have seen). That is not saying they all have been but thinking statistically, I was impressed. Seeing them work (an 8 month old pup stayed with a sick goat when the rest of the herd moved to the other end of the 80 acres with the rest of the pack…) made up our minds. (No, that was not the only instance, just one example)

 

[dejavoodoo114]

Could I rent some??? With kidding season coming up I am quite nervous as Kimber will be alone in the goat pasture. She will only be 10 months old in March...

 

[Latestarter]

Thanks all for an awesome dialog! So nice that information can be shared and discussed in an adult manner. I'm rootin' for ya Deja!! I think the reference to the problems wasn't within your pack but between the pups you are considering... But I may be wrong as well.