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Choosing an LGD puppy

Discussion in 'Livestock Guardians' started by dejavoodoo114, Jan 9, 2017.

  1. Jan 10, 2017
    Baymule

    Baymule Herd Master

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    We might not always agree, but we can always be civil and polite to each other. The members of this forum are pretty darned awesome!

    Kimber looks and sounds like one special dog. I will be following her progress. Maybe you can keep her and the flock closer to the barn/house during kidding.
     
  2. Jan 10, 2017
    dejavoodoo114

    dejavoodoo114 Loving the herd life

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    @Latestarter, I had not considered that she may have been referring to the pups. You may be right, thanks!

    @Baymule, The only fenced area close to the house is the back yard. In most of the pics we are either in the house or in the backyard, or on the porch.... DH really doesn't like the goats there, and they don't really care for it either unless the dog door is open and they get to sneak in the house. (like the time our friends woke up in the spare bed room to a goat baaaaing at the foot of their bed!!!:lol::lol:) Honestly though, we have been considering it. We also have stalls at the barn and a kidding stall with warming barrel in our chick coop that we built onto the back of the garage. That is where our fainting goat and her doeling currently are. I have been afraid to put them out in the pasture, fainting goat kids seem a lot smaller than Nubian kids... But it could just be because it has been a year since last kidding....

    The nice part is that when the weather warms we can put all the kids in the back yard with Smith. The only animals he cares about are babies and all babies love him. They use him as a pillow, jumping board, play toy.... :)

    I know all but one breeding date and can extrapolate kidding dates from that. We will have them in the kidding stall earlier than we would have bothered if not for Wesson being out of commission. Better safe than sorry!

    I have everything up on a chalk board in my lab (which is also where I study) so it is obvious. I will be very busy this spring with school but I have done as much as possible to ensure that things are either ready, or planned for, or already finished...
     
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  3. Jan 10, 2017
    Baymule

    Baymule Herd Master

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    Haha, I can identify......we put weaned lambs in the back yard and let the sheep out in the front-we don't have a lawnmower! :lol: We only have 8 acres and our two Great Pyrenees are lifesavers for our sheep. Coyotes are terrible here, but our sheep stay safe.
     
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  4. Jan 10, 2017
    dejavoodoo114

    dejavoodoo114 Loving the herd life

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    The back yard is better than in the house though! That is where I kids usually are for the first few weeks! That is what drove my husband to build the warming barrel a few years ago. We then used the screened in porch. Then he decided that was too much a part of the house and built the kidding stall in the heated chick coop. He did it two days before last years kidding so they weren't in the house again!:clap Talk about motivation! :lol: Not that I complained....
     
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  5. Jan 10, 2017
    Southern by choice

    Southern by choice Herd Master

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    LOL I am a very serious person and sometimes things come across wrong when I say them... you know how it is. Typing something cannot always show the intended tone.
    And, no worries... You know I just lost Callie. Even saying it is gut wrenching still. I know what you mean when you talk about the breeding issues. Lots of Toli's that are small, foxy faces, health issues etc. That is why I thought I might look for a Kangal. Hard to find good Toli's. Yet the Kangal gene pool here is slim. I have not been too impressed. But I am limited in my being able to travel. The other issue is I LOATHE elitist and it seems you have a lot of them in the dog world... sadly the LGD world too. I think if there were less of this attitude you wouldn't have people breeding mediocre stock. No body wants to get me started on that. :lol: Not a LGD but one of my GSD's was absolutely one of the best in every way and I desperately wanted to breed her... she never got bred because frankly I couldn't find a male that I liked. I don't give a flying crap what titles and how high ranking... yes it MIGHT say something, it might have good genetics, it might have high scores and it also might be a freaking nutjob. As far as LGD's same- I will only breed animals I really like.

    Each breed has it's issues. :rolleyes:

    The pyrs are just so easy to evaluate they are very cut/dry. Even if a breeder places a dog strategically the new owner is the other part of that equation.

    The very positive thing here is it sounds as though the pups you are looking at are getting a great deal of human interaction. IMO that is of greater value than being with livestock. Some leave them with livestock but never handle the dogs and hands down the human interaction is of much greater value.

    As you know I believe these dogs (LGD's) are capable of great things, I don't buy into the whole 2 year BS. Physical maturity may take 2 years- maybe 3 but I am talking about other factors.
    A young dog may not be able to take on predators but they should be able to be trusted with livestock. We have had 5 months old sleeping with baby goats. 8 month olds in a field while a goat is giving birth and the dog never leaves the side of the goat.. by a year old there is NO reason a dog shouldn't be there for kidding etc. Like I said great dogs are made. I believe that comes in part from a good dog but the other a good human partner.

    You know, I am glad you posted. When you said you hadn't wanted to, I thought you were going to say you had a pyr/pitt/aussie mix or a rottie mix for a LGD :lol::lol::lol: boy was I relieved when it wasn't one of those posts! ;)
    :gig:gig:gig
     
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  6. Jan 10, 2017
    dejavoodoo114

    dejavoodoo114 Loving the herd life

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    Oh, I didn't mean that I thought Kimber would hurt the kids! Actually, she has been in the pasture since she was 16 weeks. The first 2 weeks we spent watching her in the backyard with calm goats and Wesson and pig. He schooled her... LOL she acted like she was dying she squealed so loudly!!!:lol: My husband freaked out the first time but I got there first. I let Wesson walk away and then showed DH she barely even had slober on her... Wesson is a pro, he kills (killed) all the time, he was just telling her not to play with the pig! It was so funny though:lol:. There were a few more lessons like that and she had a healthy respect for Wesson and didn't try to play with the pig anymore. Honestly, the pig is the one who started it, she really wanted to play with Kimber but Wesson said no. So we put both dogs in the pasture and that is where they have been since.:D
    I was worried about a goat going off to kid and Kimber not being able to guard both herd and lone goat. OR WORSE, coyotes get in the pasture and Kimber is all alone.... We will be doing everything we can to ensure no more kids in the pasture (the fainting goat surprised us the week of finals in Dec...).
     
  7. Jan 11, 2017
    BrendaMNgri

    BrendaMNgri Ridin' The Range

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    "@BrendaMNgri, I noticed when you joined this group (honestly, I wasn’t exactly thrilled…) and knowing who you were my remarks were aimed at you."

    :smack



    I don't know who you are. Since you admit you were purposely were aiming at me o_O, I feel I have been more than civil on a topic that caused me much personal grief, financial loss, heartbreak (tragic losses of the dogs), backstabbing and drama….most of which you have probably only heard one side of. I feel I was very subdued in what I said about my own experience, and in light of what I COULD SAY :rant….about some of the people involved in Boz - extremely reserved and gracious.

    Out of respect for this forum, I'm not going there. So holster your pistol, please…..I ain't got time to bleed.

    As for other's input on this hot topic and various comments, my musings are as follows:

    I have imported many pups of many breeds (besides the "Boz", SM and PM) here and no, they were not "dogs no one else would breed". I never brought over adults, always puppies from top stock. And importing albeit costly, is an important way to bring over pure and new lines to enhance what is here. I strongly advocate it and have dealt only with top of the line breeders in EU. In terms of the two breeds I specialize in, it is key to breeding the best possible. SBC I don't think you meant your comment to be construed as that in terms of puppies, did you?

    With the Boz however, what you have are people importing over lesser quality adults to breed now as Tulubas' original "boss" he worked for and source of dogs, dried up long ago. The "Boz" I see lately are half the size of the dogs he was originally selling and breeding and appear to be of far lesser quality and highly questionable backgrounds - as if they weren't already.

    When I was getting calls from South Central Los Angeles, NYC, Watts, Downey, Vegas and Chicago about my Boz dogs it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out I was being hit up by drug dealers, gang bangers and dog fighters who frankly are the only ones I know of who can drop six grand on a puppy - most ranchers I know would laugh you off the planet if you expected them to pay that for a puppy of any breed to raise to be an LGD. Get real. :th

    As for the 'breed's' "real use": They are not considered a breed, they are considered crossbred street junk, and heavily fought in Turkey. And the Turks know it, and call it out:
    https://media.wix.com/ugd/0dd571_e1d9e32d488f4437b0310eedc1e96642.pdf

    The fruit does not fall far from the tree. Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining…..

    Bottom line is this: people get hooked on something. They get "the wannas". Whether they need it or not, they just gotta have it and nothing else. Sometimes it can be the right thing for them and sometimes not. Sometimes, people want something so bad they lose reason, and will walk away from more sensible solutions just to get what they think they have to have. That is where I toss my hands up and walk away….been here, done this, yawn. Next?

    Here I sit trying to rehome two top of the line working, proven Spanish Mastiffs and do you think anyone is buying them? People who are losing stock, by the week, to bear and wolves, who are shopping for puppies :lol: to "fix" their problems….just because they think they need a puppy and/or they are too tight to invest in going grown dogs. They don't get it. They'll go on to lose stock. Epic fail.

    No one can save the world. We can share our knowledge and experience and maybe some will listen and maybe most, won't.

    I went down that Boz Yellow Brick Road like Dorothy, and got burned bad and am not about to hide my experiences out of "embarrassment" or shame. I am going to hope at the least sharing it will make someone think harder and not binge buy into something without hearing both sides which definitely need to be heard.

    I'm not into creating or tolerating "safe spaces" when a dog's life and future are involved.

    I am really glad I'm not the only one here questioning the breeder's suitability. I still think there are people who raise those dogs ON and WITH livestock who'd be a much better choice, if that is what you have to have. I don't like the Boz guy in MT, but at least he raises his on livestock!!!!!! Did you contact him??????? If not, why not?????

    Looks are great but looks don't guard. Remember that - the dog has to be a whole animal, solid mind, good instinct, sound, healthy, raised well, etc. Stop basing choices on looks and size alone and care about the caliber of breeder you are buying from, health guarantees, support, what is inside of the dog, as much or more than a dog's huge feet or gee ain't it cute gushing, etc. etc. etc. :he That goes for everyone, not just the OP. Cute puppies grow up. Stop basing important lifelong choices on "cute puppy syndrome". :barnie
    That's all on this subject for me, folks. I'm going back up on the mountain into my meditation chamber and work on my book….. :ya ...:weee:duc
     
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  8. Jan 11, 2017
    Bruce

    Bruce True BYH Addict

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    Hmmm, I guess things have changed! I grew up in Downey from the age of 2.5 until I moved to VT in '79. Back then no one would use Watts, South Central or East LA in the same sentence as Downey. It was basic middle class with no clear "rich" section and no "wrong side of the tracks". My mother lived in that house until she died in '03. There weren't gangs or dog fighters when I lived there. Don't know how much it changed between '79 and '03. Sad to hear.
     
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  9. Jan 11, 2017
    Southern by choice

    Southern by choice Herd Master

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    My comment is directed at NO ONE in particular or about any particular breed or breeder. Simply put many people can get caught up in the idea that all imports are somehow superior to what may be available here in the states. I am sure you have seen people taken advantage of in this regard. Then you have some that just spent thousands and thousands of dollars importing a dog from someone they may not really know and now they have invested a substantial amount of money. For many that investment needs to be recouped. So now the dogs are bred and sometimes they are bred even if they are unsound or have serious issues and faults. Many may have good intentions and have a respectable goal but may not have the experience. Some however do not and look at this as a money maker.

    So true!
    You also get the "I am losing sheep/goats and the coyotes are really bad- I need a dog NOW!" And then you find out the property, the livestock head count, and the predator activity and tell them ONE dog isn't enough and they need 3,4,5 or whatever and get ticked off because there is no way you are selling them one dog. This is the thing that gets me. :somad Yeah, right like I am going to raise this animal, and send it off so it can get killed in the first week. NO! Ignorant people just think you want money and can't seem to wrap their head around the fact you are not going to send out dogs that are being set up for failure or death.

    The Boz as I have understood them to be, are being marketed and sold under the guise of livestock guardians yet are actually being brought in as fighting dogs.
    If there are those that are genuinely using the dogs in a legitimate way and are working to establish working dogs then that would be a positive.
    I know this is not my thread, I do appreciate your experience and your sharing. I also appreciate the op's quest.
     
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  10. Jan 21, 2017
    dejavoodoo114

    dejavoodoo114 Loving the herd life

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    OK, so puppy is closer than I realized!!! Now I have to choose. For those of you with experience, what did you think of a puppy, 7 weeks, that is just as often (if not more often) playing by himself than with his siblings? He goes and plays with siblings for a bit, then moves on back to himself. Back and forth.

    The other is ALWAYS playing with siblings. What do you guys make of these two different pups?

    Obviously there are other things I am taking into account but this behavioral difference confuses me so this is what I am asking about.

    @Southern by choice