Crash course: LGDs

[babsbag]

I don't have much (none) experience with that as my BCs never go out into the "wild". They have their own yard and that is where they stay. I have introduced my LGDs to them but I got all of mine as puppies. I can say that my oldest girl has no problem with the BCs at all and would probably let them into the goat pen. The other three not so much. While they all rubbed noses and spent some time together as pups those friendly introductions seem to be a thing of the past. It is usually the LGDs that run up to the house to the BCs yard and then they all get get grouchy and snippity through the fence. Neither side has ever breached the fence but it might not be pretty. And my BCs get along with other dogs, just not these dogs. I don't think that the BCs in the goat field would be welcomed at all.

@Southern by choice is the pro...perhaps she will have some tips for you.

 

[Baymule]

You might have to keep them separate. Our male GP is just fine with our house/farm dogs and plays with them. Our female GP would attack them both.

 

[BrendaMNgri]

"I suspect our property is smaller, too."

How big of a pasture are the goats going to be in? How much land are you talking here?

The number one reason LGDs start having issues, jump out or over fences, wander off, dig out, start chewing on stock, is because of boredom usually brought about by being penned up in too small of an area for days - weeks - months - i.e., their whole life. They need mental stimulation and need to stretch their legs and be able to make patrols. Remember that LGDs come originally from countries where transhumance is practiced, and the shepherd lives with his flocks full time, 24/7 - he does not split to a day job. In transhumance, the shepherd and the flocks travel over miles. LGDs are not penned in with flocks. They travel with the herd. AND the shepherd is with them, all the time. This is the history of these dogs, and what is in their blood, their genetics. Be sure you spend time with the dogs in the goats with them. They need to understand that you are part of the equation too not just observing from outside. It is not going to ruin those dogs if they come out of the goats, make rounds of your place as well. You don't indicate what your predator load is, or talk about your terrain and area, which all plays into this as well, but if this is a small hobby farm set up, you are not going to ruin those dogs bringing them out for grooming, attention, check overs, etc. They need to connect with you, not just the goats. That is very important.

Don't make the BC introduction in the pasture with the LGDs in the goats. Bring the LGDs out of the goats. I wrote a paper on this subject that was published by sheep! Magazine in July/August 2015. Read it: it is short and to the point.

 

[goatgurl]

I have a small flock of sheep and dairy goats on 60 acres in the wilds of arklahoma and have two maremma lgd's watching over them. I agree that boredom can cause a lot of problems with these dogs and it is up to you to see they are occupied. since you are getting older dogs you shouldn't have much of a problem with them. I also agree with first introducing the bc to the lgd's in your yard not with the goats. and I would introduce them from day one so the lgd's know that she belongs there too. after they are familiar with each other then take the bc in the goat pen with you on leash to control the situation. I have a small mutt puppy who is all of 15 pounds and 14 years old who goes everywhere I go, including the goat pasture. I also have and English shepherd who is my general farm dog and she also goes with me anywhere on the farm. both lgd's were introduced to them the first day and I have never had a problem. I pet and love on my lgd's all the time and they eat it up. in my humble opinion it is wrong to never give them any time or attention. good luck with your plans, I hope every thing works out for you.

 

[DustyBoot]

The seller says the dogs play with her pet pit bull, so I'm hopeful. If it doesn't work out, we'll just keep them separate. No need for the BC to be anywhere near the goats; but if we can introduce them well to help them get along if they do cross paths, my life is easier.

Brenda, thank you for the link! Definitely some food for thought, although our Border Collie is sadly lacking in herding instinct and is just a pet. We got her from rescue as a puppy when we thought we'd be in the suburbs for the rest of our life. She's smart and very trainable -- she was going to be my agility dog -- but so far I've never seen the inclination to herd things. She might actually be a mix, but darned if I can tell what by looking at her.

Our land is 14 acres in central Texas (Georgetown/Taylor, north of Austin). It's mixed open grassy pasture and some very overgrown wooded areas, backing up to a small-ish river on the south. We have about 300 acres of future park land to the west of us (part of it is in corn, the part closer to the river is woods), and the 16 acres on the east of us is mostly left natural and owned by a few families who like to come out and camp by the river. To the north we have a neighbor with a few acres of flat grassy field, then the highway. So we're pretty isolated with the woods and the river, which makes for a lot of wildlife activity. This morning we sat on the back porch and watched a mother coyote with her four pups romping around out in the field. It's not unusual for us to run across coyotes in the mornings or the evenings, although they do disappear quickly if they notice we're close. We hear a pack howling most nights and they're not far away. We also have raccoons, possums, ringtailed cats, possibly bobcats, and the UPS driver says he saw a mountain lion near our driveway earlier this year (seems unlikely but far from impossible). Red-tailed hawks, caracara,s and owls, too, for whatever they're worth. So we're not talking about bears and wolves, but the dogs will be earning their keep.

We'll be a small family operation, and the lady selling the dogs mentioned that she hoped to find them a home where they'll get a little attention and interaction. They do their work first, of course, but she's done some basic training with them and made sure they're easy to handle for medical treatment, etc. So I'd like to be sure they continue to get some attention, grooming as needed, and maybe a little reminder obedience training if it seems necessary (come, sit, walk on a leash). I know they're not pets, but I like animals in general and dogs in particular.

Right now we're fencing the perimeter and a single cross fence (and the yard areas around each house); more than that isn't feasible for us yet. My goal is to work on improving our pastures by managing grazing, so we'll be using movable electric fences to create temporary paddocks inside the perimeter fence and moving the goats around regularly. We'd also like to use the goats to clear the underbrush in the wooded areas. My dad has cleared some paths through with his Bobcat so that we can run the electric fence around sections of it. We don't yet have a night pen built, but we'll be working on that quickly. I'm not sure of the best way to manage the dogs and the small moving paddock system. I don't want to confine them unduly; I'd like to have them patrolling and free to do their jobs. But I do want to manage where the goats are. I think I'd like the night pen to be built with a jump gate so that the dogs can get in and out. It sounds like the male is a patroller and the female is a watcher, so I want the make able to come and go. If you have any advice for preventing boredom I'd be happy to hear it! I admire the work these dogs do and I want to learn to work with them so they can do their jobs effectively.

In addition to all of the above, a new question: How hard is it going to be for them to accept new ownership? When we bring them here, are they going to see us as a threat to their goats because we're relative strangers? How can we best help them learn to accept us as their new partners?

 

[babsbag]

I have two BC x Queensland Heelers that are now 10 years old, they are sisters. When we first got them we lived in the city and they only had our back yard to play in. They wore a rut around our plum tree playing chase. They would run in a circle, stop and give each other the stink eye and change directions, it was hilarious to watch. We used to call it "making butter". If you are familiar with the old politically incorrect story of Little Black Sambo you will understand that reference. Later I did agility with them, they were much better at it than I was so we never got too far. I ended up with a bum knee and had to quit and now they are just my house dogs. They haven't herded a thing in their lives but I do believe that that instinct is in them. They have a very high prey drive too. They are ok with my cats but heaven help a chicken or squirrel that enters their yard.

 

[DustyBoot]

Babsbag -- I've had Border Collies before (and known others) who, even just as pets, showed some herding instinct. You could see it when they played soccer with us, when they played with other dogs, etc. I just don't see it in Livi. She doesn't do the eye thing, and she doesn't have that compulsion to get around in front of anything that's moving. She's got the Border Collie smarts and the attitude, just not the herding.

If it helps any, this is the satellite view of the property. The building to the left is a pole barn for equipment, hay, etc. The middle building is the main house, and the building way off on the right is the secondary house. In the woods we have a lot of big pecans and burr oaks, but pretty dense underbrush. Eventual goal is to clear out the small stuff and just leave the big trees behind.

 

[babsbag]

The goats will clear it for you with no problems. Mine do a fabulous job of tree trimming.

Interesting shape to that property.

 

[DustyBoot]

Yes, it's an odd shape. I understand it was originally one piece with the narrow bit to the north and the backward-L-shape bit to the east. The guy who took the piece to the east mostly wanted the stuff by the river, and I guess whoever took the section we now own mostly wanted land but didn't want to be cut off completely from the river. I've wondered if the guy to the east of us might be interested in having our goats clear some of his property eventually.

 

[DustyBoot]

@Southern by choice , in an old thread somewhere I ran across a post from you commenting that dogs not being bonded to the land could be a cause of problems. The dogs we're getting are bonded to the stock, and we're even bringing some of their specific stock with us. But obviously they're not bonded to our land yet. Would you be willing to give me some tips on how we can help that process?