Double Dwarf Gene in NG Doe- Can She Be Bred??

pridegoethb4thefall

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I recently bought a herd of 7 Nigerian dwarf does, and came across a new term I wasn't aware of in the breed- Double dwarf gene. One of them is really small for her age.

This doe is almost 1 year old, but is easily the size of a 6 month old doeling. The previous owner said she just never grew as much as the other goats, that she was never sick, and always got plenty to eat. She said she thinks this doe has a double dwarfism gene that is making her stay small, and that the doe should not be bred or it would kill her for sure.

So, does such a condition exist? Or could her extra small size be something else?

And could she ever be bred w/out it being a death sentence?

I need to decide if Im keeping her (I don't have room for a non-producer) or if I should sell her to a pet only, buck free home. I have a buck, and can keep him penned, but I also know accidents happen, and I don't want to risk her life in any way.


BTW, I saw the previous owners place, and it was immaculate, excellent pens, 4 acres of grazing land, and she was super into keeping her goats well fed, well supplemented, and well groomed. I have no reason to even suspect the doe was anything but very well cared for.

What do you think?

Keep her and breed her?
OR
Sell her as a pet?


Normally I wouldn't have taken a doe like her since I am looking to keep my girls for home milkers, and to sell a few kids to offset feed (and of course PLAY with kids!), but she was part of a whole herd sale of 7 DOES, for only 700 bucks, which came with a TON of extras (basically everything you need to show and to keep goats) and of the 7, 6 are registered/registerable, only one wasn't, so I was NOT gonna pass up such a deal! The lineage is really good on these girls (for our area), so I am so excited about this herd being added to my current herd. Vet will be out wednesday to draw blood on ALL goats for testing, do fecals, etc. And yes, they are in quarantine. I am hoping to keep a few of the best for milkers, and sell the rest as bred registered does.

To make things more complicated, we also just picked up some pigs to raise for butcher, and I had to stuff the buck in with them for the night until I can reconfigure my pasture pens to keep everyone safe.
Of course, my buck is ramming fences to get to them, so I need to figure out about the smaller girl before he hurts himself, or busts out!!

HEEEEELLLPP!!! :barnie
 

Mamaboid

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I wish I had an answer for you, but I know nothing about NDs. I have two does that are 1 year old this week, and they seem to have the 'stay tiny gene' also. Mine are FB Fainters. They are and always have been healthy, they were triplets, their Mom and Dad are both full size and healthy, and they have always eaten good, no worms, no problems, treated for cocci prevention. I don't have an answer to why they are staying so small, and I question if I am ever going to be able to breed them. It is very frustrating to work with since these were supposed to be the foundation for my FB Fainter herd. Hopefully, somebody can help you out with answers. Meanwhile, I will just give you a :hugs
 

goodolboy

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Don't know much about goats, but I can say this. It doesn't sound to me like this goat is what you want anyway. Even if it doesn't die from it the kids won't be up to snuff. Use good breeding stock to get good results. I would cull this animal, and spend the money on good stock.
 

Pearce Pastures

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It is possible for her to have a gene for dwarfism, I suppose (but it would not mean she has anything called a "double dwarf gene"---they are not small because of of a dwarf gene so they wouldn't have like a double-dip of it). Could it be other things? Yes. She could have had trouble with coccidia or other parasites and is stunted, and even in clean places, people do have parasite issues. She could have other genetic issues other than dwarfism that have influenced her height and weight gain. She also may not have had enough good quality food to help her reach standard height.

So should she be bred? I would not. It is usually a good idea to breed a doe to a buck that is smaller than the doe or at least close to the same size, so as to avoid kidding troubles. Nigerians are naturally easy kidders but given her small frame and that you would not likely be breeding her to a similarly sized buck, she could have serious problems. She might not, but if it is not worth the expense of having a vet do a Caesarean, than I am voting don't do it and just sell her as a pet.
 

lilhill

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Pearce Pastures said:
It is possible for her to have a gene for dwarfism, I suppose (but it would not mean she has anything called a "double dwarf gene"---they are not small because of of a dwarf gene so they wouldn't have like a double-dip of it). Could it be other things? Yes. She could have had trouble with coccidia or other parasites and is stunted, and even in clean places, people do have parasite issues. She could have other genetic issues other than dwarfism that have influenced her height and weight gain. She also may not have had enough good quality food to help her reach standard height.

So should she be bred? I would not. It is usually a good idea to breed a doe to a buck that is smaller than the doe or at least close to the same size, so as to avoid kidding troubles. Nigerians are naturally easy kidders but given her small frame and that you would not likely be breeding her to a similarly sized buck, she could have serious problems. She might not, but if it is not worth the expense of having a vet do a Caesarean, than I am voting don't do it and just sell her as a pet.
:thumbsup
 

OneFineAcre

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Nigerian Dwarf is just a name that was given to a smaller breed of goat. They are not smaller because of a "dwarf" gene.

So, I doubt the "double dwarf" explanation. She may just be smaller. As to if she can be bred, it depends on how big she actually is.

How much does she actually weigh?

I would ask how many kids their were when she was born. She may have been the smallest of a quad birth that they dam raised.. I have one like that. She was smaller than our others at a year old, but she was still large enough to breed.

It is my experience that some ND's grow at different rates.

I would want to know how much she actually weighs at this point before I would say you should/shouldn't breed her or should/shouldn't sell her.

You said you are having a vet out come out. I would ask the vets opinion.
 

pridegoethb4thefall

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I think you guys are spot on- I think I will sell her to a non-breeding home, asap. She is very cute, but I really don't want a doe I can't milk or sell kids out of. She is just super tiny.... She is definitely smaller than my buck, and he is only 9 months old.

I do worry someone else could breed her trying to get even smaller nigerians, but I guess I can't control everything, can just do my best to find a good home. Ill have my vet check her wednesday and then list her for sale once I get all the results back.

Thanks to everyone for the info about dwarf genes... I hadn't heard of it and couldn't really find any info online. I had a feeling her size was more an issue of her just being small because its just her way, the rest of the herd is perfect sized, and she is related to several of them.

I can say that I think her lines come from a certain breeder whom I know has had some severely small goats born, and I mean so small that they are about the size of a pomerainian dog, and they were not getting any bigger. So, now that I put it all together, I am sure its a good idea to cull her lines from my herd- with full disclosure to any buyer.
 

OneFineAcre

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Only you can decide which animals you want to keep in your herd and what your breeding program looks like.

If you sell the animal, I would suggest you advertise her as "pet quality" or sell her as unregistered. I would be very careful as to statements about the other breeder. Negative statements about other breeders have landed people in federal court. No, joke it has happened with Nigerian Dwarfs.

In my opinion, I think you may be having an emotional reaction to the "double dwarf gene" and "death sentence" neither of which I think is factual.

You stated that she is "definitely smaller than the 9 month old buckling". I would expect a 9 month old buckling to be larger than a yearling doeling. I have a 4 month old buckling who weighs 25 lbs and a 4 month old doeling that weighs 20lbs. He is 25% larger than her.

ND's can have variations in size and growth rate

The NDGA says that does will ideally be between 17-19" at the withers, with a max height of 21". The ADGA does not have an ideal height but a maximum of 22 1/2". The difference between 17" and 22 1/2" (5 1/2") at the withers is huge. For an adult doe that could be 55-60lbs to 75-80lbs

When the ADGA recognized the breed people with other breeds of dairy goats who had no interest in them before, took interest. And, I believe have tended to breed towards the higher end, while people who bred them for years and showed at NDGA shows preferred the smaller height.

But, the thing is the people who bred the smaller ones for years had done a lot of work on improving udders, so a lot of the shorter lines with great udders are being crossed with larger animals.

We have several does who are 21 1/2". When we bought our first buck, we got an opportunity to buy one of the last buck kids from a great sire (he had died the previous winter) Turns out he's pretty large as well. When we bought our second buck we purposely looked for a smaller animal. You should see the difference.

Again, I'm curious as to how much she actually weighs and would love to see a picture of her.
 

Southern by choice

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Well said One Fine Acre! :thumbsup

There really is a good deal of size various. My girls are on the larger end of the height scale, with their weights on the upper end 60lbs-almost 80...the 80 because she was fat! I like mine larger, some go as small as possible. Just different preferences. I just try to make sure my bucks are a nice solid standard as to keep the offspring balanced and in proportion. C-1 is 30 lbs and 41/2 months, and yes she is a bit "fat". :rolleyes:


By the way...you can get her spayed. I know someone that has a ewe that she spayed because of breeding problems but her wool is so good it was better to keep her. I thought it was kinda cool, I'd never heard of that before.
 

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