Baymule

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Murphy is fabulous. What a gorgeous dog. This dog is going to worm his way into your heart and take over the very cells of your entire body, in the truest form of a partnership and cause you to fall head over heel in love and respect for him. Sign me up for Murphy's Fan Club!
 

Beekissed

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Murphy is fabulous. What a gorgeous dog. This dog is going to worm his way into your heart and take over the very cells of your entire body, in the truest form of a partnership and cause you to fall head over heel in love and respect for him. Sign me up for Murphy's Fan Club!

Oh, Bay, you amuse me! My cells are not easily taken over, so I wouldn't go that far, but he's definitely showing me good things. Eli said yesterday, "So...you are starting to like this dog?" and I told him, "Well, I don't DISLIKE him anymore, so that's a start." :D

If I'd had my pistol with me on the drive home, I'd likely to have popped him one in the head and left him for dead on a lonely back road. So, I think being able to see his good progress and attributes as a good step forward. :D =D He's not dead, so that's all good.
 

Baymule

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So you are admitting he has a chance? You can put up your grumpy front, I know you like that dog. Haha But I won’t say anything, it’s our little secret. Shhhhh.........
 

Beekissed

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So you are admitting he has a chance? You can put up your grumpy front, I know you like that dog. Haha But I won’t say anything, it’s our little secret. Shhhhh.........

Yeah...he's got a good chance. :D =D He's doing GREAT. Today he explored the electric fence and slipped under the 10 in. bottom wire as if it didn't exist and ran gleefully up the driveway, like a kid getting one over on their parents. At least he came back. That fence was on but he didn't get zapped...gauged the pulses and made his escape.

Can't wait to get our Sport Dog fence installed around the property..... :confused:

He's been very patient, has been very calm and good with everything we've been making him do. I just MAY start liking the big lug.
 

Beekissed

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A few days ago we supervised a fight for pack order between Murphy and Blue and this time Blue instigated it first. I guess he found out that being friendly to this dog isn't working, time to bring the hurt. We had a long rope on Murphy in case true fighting started, but though it was intense a couple of times, no true fighting for injury happened....just establishing each other's strengths, how much they were willing to give one another towards dominance, etc. We pulled Murphy back a few times when he was getting too intense but it turned out to not be necessary.

I was concerned all the while that the activity would strain Blue's hip and I thought he would be a little stiff and sore the day after, but no injury occurred during the fight...to Blue, that is.

Now, Blue had just finished a long and intense play session with Dooley and was resting in the shade, while Murphy has been on the run line for the past few days, storing up energy...likely not the best time to have done it, but I had man power on hand and it needed done. We brought Murphy down to the gate and Blue was growling before he even got there....in other words, he was through playing Mister Nice Dog. Two other occasions I had let them meet and Blue was willing but Murphy was in attack mode right from the start...no history of dog socialization skills in that dog's life, apparently.

In the fight we started to see a little blood on Blue's fur but couldn't see a wound, so we let him finish what he started....and he did. I was so proud of him I could have burst buttons off my shirt if I had had any on it! The blood? It was Murphy's....a small slice in the skin of one of his front legs, so every time he was trying to get on top of Blue, a little blood was being wiped on him. The sound was ferocious, the action was fast....and Blue was a fast, strong fighter. Murphy depended on his weight, his height, and sound, while Blue fought like a wolf, low and fast, biting quickly and holding on for dear life, slipping out from under Murphy time and again to gain the upper position.

We tried to pull Murphy out of the fight to give Blue a rest, but Blue didn't want it and followed Murphy when we pulled him back, so we let it continue....he kept fighting until Murphy was done with it all. They stood face to face, panting from it all, facing one another for the first time with no fight in their eyes or their body language...at least, Murphy had none...Blue was still in feral mode with hair up all along his spine and clear down his tail, with his eye on his opponent and waiting for the next round. Murphy was clearly done with it all. They were both blowing like a race horse and Murphy was trembling from all the effort, but Blue was not.

Murphy found out that Blue is ready to be a pack member~even a partner~ but he's nobody's punching bag. He also found out that superior size isn't going to win him anything much against a faster, meaner opponent. Nobody got seriously hurt and I think the next time it won't get that bad, might not even get bad at all....could be they'll be ready to play fight instead.

Blue is my underdog hero! It was incredible to watch him fight....he's like a feral thing, with teeth exposed and ears back, while Murphy fights like most dogs do.

Side note: Neither dog was stiff or sore the next day and the small cut on Murphy's leg is so shallow as to be inconsequential. I'm hoping to supervise a meeting with them again this weekend when I have Eli to hold the rope and help me see that neither dog gets injured too badly. I'm hoping there will be no fighting this time, but just regular social interaction of actually sniffing one another and posturing.
 

Baymule

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This is awesome! You are right, this had to be done and under supervision so that neither dog got hurt. I’m proud of Blue too, what a great dog. Give him a hug from me. Murphy tried to bully his way through and found out that being big and a bad attitude just doesn’t cut it—not with Blue! Both dogs are fortunate to have you as pack leader, you know and understand their social order. These aren’t lap dogs and require a strong leader, they have it in you.
 

Beekissed

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This is awesome! You are right, this had to be done and under supervision so that neither dog got hurt. I’m proud of Blue too, what a great dog. Give him a hug from me. Murphy tried to bully his way through and found out that being big and a bad attitude just doesn’t cut it—not with Blue! Both dogs are fortunate to have you as pack leader, you know and understand their social order. These aren’t lap dogs and require a strong leader, they have it in you.

I think only someone like you, Bay, would think this is awesome. :gig Most people would be horrified that I supervised a fight between my own dogs or let them fight at all. But you likely are like me....you understand there is a pack order and it has to be established in order for them to work as a pack. I'd rather that order be worked out in front of me and under my direct supervision, than later on when I can't help a dog that is possibly getting the worst of it.

Murphy just hasn't had much dog interaction, I think, as he seems to have missed the part where you sniff a dog before you start fighting with it....with both Dooley and Blue, his first reaction to them was to try and bite them...didn't even growl first, just lunged forward with mouth open. Not healthy social skills in a dog, especially one that has nothing its guarding or protecting from other dogs.

After I got onto him about attacking Dooley, I supervised a visit between the two and only then did Murphy do the sniff greeting and now they play together and Murphy even lets Dooley eat out of his food dish without snapping his head off.

After the fight with Blue, Murphy is showing me much more respect...not sure why that is. Could be he thought he was pack leader until Blue took him down a notch? Not sure, but I'm liking it.
 

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After the fight with Blue, Murphy is showing me much more respect...not sure why that is. Could be he thought he was pack leader until Blue took him down a notch? Not sure, but I'm liking it.
He probably knew you were above Blue but thought you were below him, now that he knows he is equal to or below Blue, he now knows you are above him because you are above Blue.

Trying to figure out ranking is interesting sometimes.
 

Beekissed

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He probably knew you were above Blue but thought you were below him, now that he knows he is equal to or below Blue, he now knows you are above him because you are above Blue.

Trying to figure out ranking is interesting sometimes.

It is indeed. Even the roosters on the land seek to find the ranking when it comes to the human....I spend a little time as they grow to show them they are low on the totem pole around here.

Soon I'll be training Dooley(my herding pup), using the ram lambs and wethers and they too will get a sense that the human outranks them, as do the dogs. That should be good for later, when my breeder rams are much larger and harder to handle. Right now the ram lambs see me as food bringer, so the bucket love tends to make them more familiar than I deem is safe for later interactions. I don't encourage them getting in my space, but when they are all pushing and shoving one another, I do get bumped at times by a thick, muscular rear end.
 

Baymule

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I’ve worked out herd order with my horses, nothing like 1,000 pound animals working out herd leadership. One thing I have ALWAYS established is that I am the LEAD MARE. I don’t bite or kick and I’m 10 times smaller, but I get the message across.

Dogs are trickier. They are so much our equals and predators like we are. LGDs are even harder to establish the Alpha Dog over the pack. Yes, you had to let Blue and Murphy fight for their place in the pack. Murphy has no inkling or glimmer of subjection to any dog or human. He got a darn good lesson and he needed to get taken down a couple of notches. By controlling it, you showed him that you are the ultimate boss. That fight was allowed by you and ended by you, the Pack Leader. Well done.
 
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