help please ... need advice regard young LGD and older aussie mix

[use2bwilson]

Hi There,
I am very concerned about the safety of my 11 year old male aussie / heeler mix around our 1.5 year old male LGD.
I am considering re-homing the LGD but really really hate to do that.
They are both great dogs and the LGD is turning out to be an awesome guardian and super sweet great dog in general. (But to be fair the aussie mix is my absolute favorite dog I have ever owned. I would not forgive myself if something happened to him that I could / should have prevented).
The tension between the 2 dogs began about 6 months. But shortly after I noticed this growing tension, my aussie mix and I moved away from the "family" while I started a new job in CO. During this 6-month transition, I had my aussie mix with me while my husband stayed behind with the rest of the critters while the house sold, etc. We have been together at our new place for just over a month and have been very cautious to keep the 2 dogs separate. Our new place is fenced and cross fenced and we are able to manage this separation pretty well. Both dogs are relaxed when they are separated by the fence and there is no attempts to rush the gate when gates are opened. Both dogs listen very well.
However, the other day we had an incident with another dog nearly killing a chicken (we have 5 dogs total and typically they all have been fine with our chickens and goats). However, in the last week one of them has killed a chicken and was caught in the act of eating it. This was a 2nd attempt.
In the drama of another chicken assault, our young LDG got out of his pasture and attacked our aussie mix. Somehow, miraculously, our aussie was unharmed ... everyone was unharmed. But it took both my husband and I to separate the two and had the fight not occurred right next to our tack room where we could put the aussie for safety once they were finally separated, I do not think it would have ended so well. If this had happened away from the buildings where we could not have put the aussie behind closed doors ... I do not wish to imagine what might have happened.
My husband is a super strong athletic dude and he is barely able to control the LGD "pup" when he goes "full akbash" as we call it. Our LDG "pup" is in general very sweet and submissive and pretty darn obedient in the realm of LGDs. He LOVES to play with our female LDG and our female bc/heeler mix. He also gets along great with our 11 year old male akbash. He also plays really nicely with our neighbor's female dog. He is truly an amazing dog that I do not want to re-home.
He has not yet been neutered. I wanted to let him mature a bit before I had him neutered but I will be making an appointment ASAP.
On a day to day basis, the situation is very manageable; however, there is always the potential that someone makes a mistake and a gate is left ajar. I would not forgive myself if something happened to my aussie mix.
I do not want to over react and get rid of an amazing LGD. He really is amazing. (He only barks on an as need basis!!)
But I do not want to under react...
I feel like I am crazy to keep them both ... THOUGHTS !??!!?
I do not expect that neutering him will change anything over night ... but perhaps in a few months as a 2 year old LGD, his intensity will subside a bit (as I type this I know it is wishful thinking).
Before the recent incident, I had taken them on a short "run" together while the aussie is off leash and the LGD is on leash. I thought this time together would be positive and relaxed and it might help improve things. It went well and was very relaxed. They are fine together on many levels yet I DO NOT TRUST IT.
Perhaps with continued controlled positive interactions, we can work through this ...?!??!
I truly want to work this out somehow ... but my heart tells me it is too risky ...

 

[Bruce]

@Southern by choice is your best bet with this.



sorry it was a near disaster that brought you here.

 

[Baymule]

I have practically your same situation. I even have an 11 year old Aussie!! How's THAT for coincidence? I have a female Great Pyrenees named Paris, the female Aussie is named Polly. They absolutely loathe, hate and despise each other. And to make it worse, Polly will attack Paris, which is never good. The last fight took a trip to the vet to stitch Polly's head up. It is scary when dogs fight and I don't blame you for being concerned and worried about doing what is right for both dogs.

Your two dogs don't get along. Just like there are people you don't like, dogs don't always like each other. You will have to keep them separate. Since your LGD is a working dog, it shouldn't be too hard. Keep him in his world, and keep the Aussie in his world. Do you have a fenced back yard? If not, seriously consider one, it would give you a double layer of protection for the Aussie and still allow him to be outside. Let the Aussie accompany you when you are outside, keeping him out of your LGD's territory. House or farm dogs should never be allowed into an LGD's work space.

If you want to let the LGD out into the common area, first put the Aussie in the house or back yard. There is no need to get rid of the LGD, he sounds like a good dog and an asset to your farm.

The good part about my dog's dislike for each other, is that Polly became a house dog. A spoiled, sleeps in our room on her own bed, gets special treats, super spoiled house dog. We call her Princess Polly.
Paris is a good sheep and chicken guard. I would not get rid of her because of the friction between her and Polly.

That is my experience with 2 dogs that hate each other. I hope it helps. But as previously mentioned, @Southern by choice is our premier dog trainer and perhaps she will have a better suggestion.

 

[Latestarter]

Greetings and welcome to BYH. I'm sorry that you are having this issue that brought you to us. As has already been mentioned, @Southern by choice has been our resident LGD expert for quite a long time. We have recently had a new person join BYH who has been a long time breeder of LGDs who may also be able to help or provide input/guidance; @BrendaMNgri I mention this because just this evening Southern lost her top LGD female and I'm sure is in mourning.

Much will depend on why and where your LGD attacked your Aussie. Was the Aussie involved with the chicken killer or come between that dog and your LGD? Was the LGD in his area when he attacked the Aussie? It sounds to me like the LGD should be predominantly kept in his area and the Aussie should be kept out of the LGD area. As Bay stated, a securely fenced back yard area for the Aussie to use would probably help.

Hope you'll stick around. If you have some pics you could share, we're all very addicted to pics here. There's also quite a bit of information shared in the LGD section. Browse around and make yourself at home.

 

[use2bwilson]

Thanks for the welcome greetings
After the recommendations, I messaged Southern By Choice for input. Then realized she was SBC in the very sad posting about Callie. I am just catching up but it is clear what a special dog Callie is ... loved and cherished by all. My heart goes out to SBC.

I will provide some more detail on my situation ...
My Aussie (Quigley) was not near the chicken incident at all. He was near our house and not at all involved. The female akbash (Loretta) who has been around our chickens for 2 years has just started killing (and eating) them in the past week. Perhaps this is a result of our transition to our new farm ?!?
Since my aussie has not been around our young LGD (Hitch) for that past 6 months (Quigs was with me during my new job transition in CO while my hubby was back in AZ until we got a new place here). We have been in our new place for about 6 weeks and we have been very careful with the reintroduction of Quigs and Hitch. Hitch spends most of his time in the goat pasture. If he is out of the pasture, Quigs is not around or Hitch is on leash. Our female akbash (Loretta) spent the majority of her time in the pasture too (up until the recent chicken killings). Hitch and Loretta are very bonded and definitely enjoy lots of play time together.
FYI ... we also have an older akbash male (10 y/o) - Willie and a precocious 5 y/o female bc / heeler mix _ Cassie.
Willie is "semi-retired." He has been a great mentor to Hitch and they get along great although the youngster will sometime play a bit too rough for the old man. We are careful at this point to only put Hitch and Willie together when we are right there so we can remove Willie if Hitch gets too rambunctious.
Luckily we have good fencing and multiple pastures.

One theory I have is that the drama of the chicken killing "set off" Hitch. I may have over reacted in my correction of Loretta. Hitch very well may have been reacting to me. As my husband and I ran out to intervene, the "back yard gate" was left open where my Aussie was hanging out. And, the pasture gate too was left open as we rushed in. There is about 50-70 between the two areas ...
Anyway, suddenly Hitch was out of the pasture and on top of Quigs. I jumped right into the mix and managed to get Hitch off of Quigs but was unable to keep control of Hitch for long. I think he out weighs me and he certainly out powers me. Luckily Quigs ran closer to the house where Hitch attacked him again. If he was not next to the house where we were able to separate them again and quickly shove Quigs into the safety of the garage ... I truly do not know how we would controlled the situation. I am terrified to think of what could have been the outcome. We were very very very lucky.
During this time the two female also got into it. We are always on eggshells with the two of them. However, the heeler mix is the aggressor out of the two. It was pretty much complete chaos and mayhem. Yet lucky ... I got a few minor punctures in my one hand. Very minor ... and yes, I know how stupid I was in how I intervened!!

I am trying very hard to be fair to all our dogs. I DO NOT want to re-home Hitch. He is on his way to being a magnificent LGD and he is truly a complete love (other than the hatred for Quigs). But to be honest, Quigs is my absolute buddy. He is my running, biking, hiking buddy. He has kept me safe in the wilderness for years. We have countless miles and adventures together. He as guarded my campsites. He has alerted me to a mountain lion, a protective mama moose and countless coyotes. I want to be clear in my bias ... he is my absolute #1 dearest-to-my-heart dog. He deserves to be safe in his own home in his golden years. He is not quite in his golden years yet (still running, hiking and biking with me).

I have fostered a lot of herding dogs over the years and I do not take re-homing any animal lightly. Willie is a rescue, Loretta is a rescue and so is Cassie. I am very committed but I do not want to be blind in my devotion on either side of this coin. I am willing to work through the situation but I am also a little terrified that a mistake will happen and I will never forgive myself ...
I am glad I found this forum.
All input is welcome. I truly want to make the best decision ...

 

[Baymule]

Bad manners on my part, WELCOME to BYH!!! We moved almost 2 years ago to a doublewide on 8 acres in the Tyler, Texas area. Yup, we left the big brick house on a tiny city lot and haven't looked back. Having the time of our lives. So glad you joined us and hope you can work out the dog dynamics. Check out the forum, join in the conversation, and post pictures!!

 

[OneFineAcre]

My mutt farm dog Emma and my GP Angel can't stand each other.

We have to keep them separate.

You just have to manage the situation and keep the dogs apart.

 

[samssimonsays]

We had rising issues with our Great Pyr/Saint Bernard male with other male dogs near "his" girls. a female he was fine with but it was once he hit that year mark and really matured he got more dominant and growly (never harmed anything but asserted himself more and more). In our case, neutering him brought back the easy going dog he was. Same went for our female, his daughter. Once we spayed her, her entire demeanor changed towards everything. She was more laid back and has relaxed around people. She will react if "her" goats are outside when people or other dogs come over which we want, but when they are locked up or we go places she is a very calm and loving dog which is what we want in our dogs. I do not have any advice, just what worked for us in our situation.

 

[misfitmorgan]

Maybe i'm misunderstanding but, i dont think Hitch hates Quigs.

Both dogs are relaxed when they are separated by the fence and there is no attempts to rush the gate when gates are opened. Both dogs listen very well.

Our LDG "pup" is in general very sweet and submissive and pretty darn obedient in the realm of LGDs. He LOVES to play with our female LDG and our female bc/heeler mix. He also gets along great with our 11 year old male akbash. He also plays really nicely with our neighbor's female dog.

Before the recent incident, I had taken them on a short "run" together while the aussie is off leash and the LGD is on leash. I thought this time together would be positive and relaxed and it might help improve things. It went well and was very relaxed. They are fine together on many levels....

None of those points indicate that he "hates" Quigs.

I hope i dont offend you and could be totally wrong but have you considered that you might be causing the conflict? If hitch senses your anxiety, tension, fear, and worry anytime he is around Quigs it would likely make hitch on edge and liable to snap at anything "out of step" Quigs did....no? Over time hitch would learn Quigs is not a trustworthy dog, because obviously any time he is around you your fearful, agitated, full of anxiety, etc.

When i trained dogs before i have seen the owners fears directly influence what the dog does to the point of the dog acting exactly how they are afraid they are gonna act simply because of the owners signals, emotions, negative thoughts, etc. Remove the owner with the worries and the dog was fine.

Even up to the point of a dog that had killed another dog so the owner would never let it around other dogs and kept it in her house or on a very short leash when walking it. It got worse and worse, the dog would lunge and try to attack any other dog it could see. Remove the owner and walk the dog on the same exact route and the dog was walking with a loose lead and other dogs passing by without so much as a grumble after 10-15 minutes of minor corrections. Took the same dog to a fenced area and took our larger personal dogs at the time along with us. Let our dogs loose in fenced area then brought the "offender" in and they played for hours without a single problem. The dog went home that evening, the owner was excited her dog was "fixed" the next morning when the owner was walking the dog, he was trying attack other dogs again. The owner decided to have the dog neutered to end the problem.....guess what...that didnt fix it so she ended up giving us the dog. We owned that dog for 6 yrs and he lived in a house with 3 other dogs and we didnt have anything other then minor squabbles like dogs do. We explained the issue to the owner by she couldnt let go of her fears.

SBC says LGD's a different critters so maybe i am wrong but from what your saying it doesnt feel like they hate each other but it does feel like your emotions may be creating the situation.

I am very concerned about the safety of my 11 year old male aussie / heeler mix around our 1.5 year old male LGD.

I would not forgive myself if something happened to him that I could / should have prevented).

We have been together at our new place for just over a month and have been very cautious to keep the 2 dogs separate.

I do not wish to imagine what might have happened.

On a day to day basis, the situation is very manageable; however, there is always the potential that someone makes a mistake and a gate is left ajar. I would not forgive myself if something happened to my aussie mix.

They are fine together on many levels yet I DO NOT TRUST IT.

I truly want to work this out somehow ... but my heart tells me it is too risky ...

I am terrified to think of what could have been the outcome.

I am willing to work through the situation but I am also a little terrified that a mistake will happen and I will never forgive myself ...

By your own statements it sounds like your emotions go into over drive just thinking about a possible injury to your Quigs, i dont know how you could possibly remain calm with Quigs actually there. It's very possible you were stressed about your move and hitch picked up on and it started picking on Quigs a bit which you noticed and started to quietly worry about, then you moved away and took Quigs for 6 months with the thought of hitch seriously hurting Quigs in the back of your mind for those 6 months. Then came time to bring the two dogs back together and the worry about how the dogs would get along and how best to re-introduce them, etc. On and on and on...

I could be wrong but this feels like the case to me. The dogs i have seen that hate each other do not act calmly and fine on opposite sides of a single fence, or go on walks/runs together and be fine.

Maybe the new dog trainer person will chime in or SBC will after some time mourning.

 

[babsbag]

My house dogs and my 2 of my LGDs cannot be together. I think that they probably do hate each other. My pasture and my house are over 100' apart and I have good fences on both yard and field. When I go from one to the other I always close the gate behind me. You just have to make it a habit. But I also know that if a gate gets left open there is still a fence line to protect the dogs. There may be a lot of posturing going on outside of the fence but the dogs are safe.

And welcome to BYH from California. You found a great place to hang out and "meet" some great people.