help please ... need advice regard young LGD and older aussie mix

[misfitmorgan]

Haha, Trip "blocks" me but makes it hard to turn my back on him, as he wraps around my legs like a big white furry snake. He especially does this when I am holding our 3 month old grand daughter or anything else he thinks he should protect. Gotta love these dogs! He does unblock when I tell him NO. QUIT.

i ment blocking other dogs

My tiny chihuahua is the boss of the other dogs and tries to do the same thing but i kick her off my lap if she does it and ignore her. She is getting better about it slowly but she is 12yrs old and can be a butt. She doesnt like getting kicked off the couch/me, she sits on the floor and looks at me like i murdered her.

 

[use2bwilson]

@babsbag - thanks for the tip ...
and thanks again for all the stories, examples and input.
I totally agree that if Hitch wanted Quigs dead, he would be dead. Maybe that is why I am so nervous. But then on that account, Quigs is not dead and it was a warning. I see a small change in Quig's behavior so hopefully, hopefully, hopefully he will be more respectful of Hitch. I will continue to not allow Quigs to block and will utilize the suggestions. I've also talked to my husband about us teaming up for some short structured trainings with both dogs together. We are more than willing to work through this ... but I don't want to jeopardize one dog's safety while we do if others with more experience think the situation is too risky.
One day at a time ... I guess.
I have a pre-op vet appt today for Hitch to be neutered. Our plan was to let him mature and/or until it was a problem. He has matured and now is the time.

 

[misfitmorgan]

@babsbag - thanks for the tip ...
and thanks again for all the stories, examples and input.
I totally agree that if Hitch wanted Quigs dead, he would be dead. Maybe that is why I am so nervous. But then on that account, Quigs is not dead and it was a warning. I see a small change in Quig's behavior so hopefully, hopefully, hopefully he will be more respectful of Hitch. I will continue to not allow Quigs to block and will utilize the suggestions. I've also talked to my husband about us teaming up for some short structured trainings with both dogs together. We are more than willing to work through this ... but I don't want to jeopardize one dog's safety while we do if others with more experience think the situation is too risky.
One day at a time ... I guess.
I have a pre-op vet appt today for Hitch to be neutered. Our plan was to let him mature and/or until it was a problem. He has matured and now is the time.

I wish you the best of luck and please keep us updated on how your progress goes.

 

[Baymule]

X2!

 

[Latestarter]

X3

 

[TAH]

x4

 

[use2bwilson]

It's been a while since my original post so I thought I would give an update.
Since my last post, we have had Hitch neutered and continue to focus on general obedience training a few times a week and as opportunities present themselves.
I also feel like I understand our situation much better. Hitch (almost 2 y/o LGD) and Quigley (12 y/o Aussie healer mix) have been getting along okay. We still keep them apart for the most part. They are near each other every day (separated by the fence with no tension) but I do not allow Quigs into the pens. I have been taking hitch and Quigs on runs together a few times a week and they are totally fine - sniffing the same patches of grass together and running along relaxed. I have Hitch on leash and Quigs off.
However what I have realized about Hitch is his extreme reactivity to some stimulations /situations. So I am now pretty sure that the big fight that prompted my original post was caused by the chaos of the other dog killing a chicken. It is clear to me now that "that bad energy" and our reaction to the situation is what set off Hitch and Quigs just happened to be in the line of fire.
We have had a few occasions that are somewhat similar with Hitch becoming very very aggressive with his buddy Loretta when someone walks past our property with another dog. Hitch will get super worked up and literally jump on Loretta. This does not happen every time a dog walks by but it doesn't happen rarely and unpredictably. It looks very aggressive and intense yet she has never been hurt or bit. This has happened a handful of times (maybe 3 times in 4 months) and because of it we do not leave them together in the same pen when we are not home. They have a few hours in the morning and again in the evening that they get to romp and play and wrestle but only when we are home.
Any way it is this reactive behavior that is becoming very concerning. Each time we have witnessed it, we jump the fence and discipline Hitch and separate them for a while and sometimes throw Hitch in a barn stall. Basically we get in Hitch's face when this happens with a firm no and maybe grab him by the collar to get his attention and correct the behavior. Nothing overly physical yet a very firm clear NO!!
Because of this behavior I have recently stopped taking him on runs. If we see other dogs he will sometimes escalate and lunge at my other dog that I have on leash. There are times where I can keep him calm however other times when he is less controllable. I do not trust the situation any longer. I do not want to stop taking him on runs yet he weighs nearly as much as I do and I struggle to keep him controlled.
As I had mentioned in my original post we just recently transitioned from 20 acres surrounded by national forest on 3 sides to a 3-acre property more in town. Hitch is currently guarding a pasture / pen area less than an acre. So I am concerned that he is bored and frustrated by the much smaller space. We are almost finished fencing the remaining property with the intentions of expanding his space. However I am not sure if I will give him access to the back pasture with his behavior. Most likely he will have access to the additional 2 acres when we are outside with him so we can train and correct unwanted behaviors.
So I guess I have a few questions...
1. What corrections to you recommend for this behavior?
2. Is 3-acres too small of a space for his intensity? I do not want to re-home him at all ... but I want what is best for him and wonder if this transition is not a good fit for him. He is a really great dog just his intensity is some times over the top.
3. With continued training and management (separation from other dogs when we are not home), will he mellow out in another year or so. He turns 2 in April so I realize that right now he is like an 18- old boy and needs continued training.
I am open to thoughts and suggestions...

 

[Bruce]

@BrendaMNgri @Southern by choice

I don't think you should be taking a working LGD for runs off the property. Its job is to STAY on the property guarding it and the animals other than necessary things like trips to the vet. I don't know enough to say if being away from his property caused "internal consternation" that contributes to his behavior. However I think you are doing him no favors by treating him like a pet.

Yes he needs human interaction and socialization but on HIS turf, not out on the road, at dog parks, etc. He can be a "combo" companion/working LGD and spend time in the house.

And yes I would say he needs more space. I don't know where you live (you can post it in your profile) so I don't know if you can doubletime the fence building or need to wait for the ground to thaw but I would make that a top priority.

 

[BrendaMNgri]

As I had mentioned in my original post we just recently transitioned from 20 acres surrounded by national forest on 3 sides to a 3-acre property more in town. Hitch is currently guarding a pasture / pen area less than an acre. So I am concerned that he is bored and frustrated by the much smaller space. We are almost finished fencing the remaining property with the intentions of expanding his space. However I am not sure if I will give him access to the back pasture with his behavior. Most likely he will have access to the additional 2 acres when we are outside with him so we can train and correct unwanted behaviors.
So I guess I have a few questions...
1. What corrections to you recommend for this behavior?
2. Is 3-acres too small of a space for his intensity? I do not want to re-home him at all ... but I want what is best for him and wonder if this transition is not a good fit for him. He is a really great dog just his intensity is some times over the top.

You requested my input, so will say this: I think you need to work on finding him a new home. No amount of correction is going to solve this problem. The shrinkage of acreage is just too much and less than an acre is not enough room for an LGD, intense or not. That is just too much of a shock. His behavioral issues are and will continue to stem from his frustration. He does not have enough to do.

On another subject you brought up, I do not take my dogs off my ranch for runs or romps. I would occasionally let two of my old Pyr girls ride into town in the back seat of my F250 but they stayed in there during the errand. Taking a dog off it's ranch and away from it's stock to play with strange dogs or go to a dog park, is sending confusing mixed messages to it. The dog as others pointed out, is supposed to stay put on his property (which does not happen automatically of course this is achieved with good fencing that keeps the dog there), guarding livestock, performing it's function. Socializing can be accomplished at him on your ranch by introductions to guests and family. Thus your dog is acclimated to meeting people under a controlled circumstance that enables him to be a healthy socialized dog without removing him from his job site.

Your LGD and your herding dog are together. Although herding dogs can safely mix with guardian dogs please remember folks they are apples and oranges. One moves stock. The other protects it. Plain and simple. Herders are more intense and hyper. I would not want a herder mingling all the time with an LGD, for fear out of it's possibly corrupting the LGD if it is young and impressionable, to chase or herd stock. You never want to cross or breed an LGD to a herder and vice versa. You respect their genetics and understand they don't work the same. Sadly this is going on in spades now and people are creating dogs who don't know what to do and/or are inferior guardians. Most large commercial sheep outfits I know and occasionally work with or for and help, do not let the herder dogs mix with the guardians. In some instances the guardians will try to attack a herding dog if they see it nipping a sheep's feet or trying to move it, so precautions are taken. When we work a band of sheep or dock and vaccinate lambs or shear, the guardians are locked up in a gooseneck trailer off away from all the commotion so they don't stress out.

One of the biggest challenges in anything in life is to be able to take a step back, say oops I may have made a mistake, own up to it and do what needs to be done and move on, hopefully wiser. We all do this. No one is perfect. You have choices to make and hopefully you can do so and the dog can be re-homed into a loving, caring and more suitable home.