Help with breed selection

Scooby308

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Nigerians have the best feed to milk conversion ratio.
Is that on pasture with little supplemental grains? I did the math work back year ago on boers and had a good growing plan with little grain at all. I do understand that dairies require supplemental feed when lactating.
 

OneFineAcre

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Is that on pasture with little supplemental grains? I did the math work back year ago on boers and had a good growing plan with little grain at all. I do understand that dairies require supplemental feed when lactating.

Nigerians have the best feed to milk conversion ratio period. Whatever you feed them they are going to be more efficient.
Output is always going to depend on input. The more you give them, the more they will give you. They just do it better.

This is of course dependent upon acquiring good stock. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people on this forum complaining about their Nigerians who only give two cups a day. They thought they would get 2 quarts a day. A very good Nigerian gives 2 quarts per day. A good one gives a quart. If you are only getting two cups, you got yourself a pet.
 
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Southern by choice

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If you need higher output then getting goats from those that test and have proven stock is best... although some do not need a great deal of output so less is best for some. Regardless all my goats are pets. LOL But OFA makes a good point.

Having also seen many years of the show world with canines, there are advantages and disadvantages of looking at a pedigree and seeing titles. We have low, mid, and high out put goats. We will never show our goats because I am way too familiar with the show world and much that goes on in it. Regardless of species there are issues associated with it.

Some really strive for improvement and work very hard at what they are doing, some simply enjoy it, and some care more about a title than anything else. Goats, much like canines, cattle, poultry, sheep...etc.... can be judged by many factors and clearly doing well in the milk tests will give you an idea of the stock you are buying, however that is only part of the bigger picture. Some in their quest for focusing on one aspect, like perfect udders and high output may sacrifice in others. Close line breeding and failing to understand that a goat is a goat and they are more than an udder has led to other problems in the goat world.

If a goat has an exceptional pedigree and lots of "stars"... great. But that goat also needs to be able to live on the land and have excellent parasite resistance-by living ON the land, not in a dry lot environment. I also am seeing so many goats having allergies. Seriously... a goat with environmental allergies. IMO When too much of the focus is in one area only than what else is being sacrificed? If I had the choice of a Nigerian that can produce 2qts a day but has allergies and parasite issues and can't live off the land and a goat that produces 1 qt a day and has excellent parasite resistance, no allergies and lives off the land for the most part... I'm going to pick the 1 qt a day goat.

Same as anything... Give me a registered, unregistered, or a cross... makes no difference if the animal can produce and have superior health, kid well and easily, raise their kids up- than that is a great goat period.
 

OneFineAcre

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Scooby 308,
As is often the case sometimes the original posters questions get's sidetracked. One of the things I love about this forum is the free flowing nature of it. You get people together who are passionate and have different opinions and experiences then that's what you get.
You asked about breeds but seemed to come to Nigerians on your own. I think they are a great choice, but I am biased. I also think that the experimental mini's (cross between ND and standard) are a good choice for a homestead. I think you made a comment earlier about feeding excess milk to pigs, so I feel like production is important to you. I wish I could have some pigs, that is a great choice. I've also heard of people giving them the whey from cheese making. I have also found the breed to be good for many of the things that SBC mentioned. We've never had a problem with worms. We have had over 30 kids in 5 years and never had a kidding difficulty. One thing she didn't mention that we have observed is that in 5 years we have never had a single case of mastitis. I think we can take some credit as far as our animal husbandry practices, but I think the breed deserves a lot of the credit too.

My family and I are not "show breeders" We are just a family who bought 3 pet goats 5 years ago and thought it would be fun if our daughter who was 5 years old at the time showed them in the youth show at the NC State fair. We have not been disappointed. it has turned into probably the most enjoyable activity that our entire family participates in together. We have met some wonderfully nice people who are now some of our closest friends. We show in 4 shows a year now. We never worry about the other kids that our daughter is hanging out with, or her running around the show, or the goat barn.

I have no experience with the dog showing world. Seems like it might be tough. I can't compare the two because I have no basis for comparison.

We breed our animals based on what we like. We have different types of animals. I've got one doe who is 22 1/4' tall. We are trying to mix different body types, udder shapes, to produce quality dairy goats. If a judge likes them, great. As far as breeding just for udders, that wouldn't be productive anyway if you are showing. Udder is only 35 points out of 100 on a show score card. 35 points for general appearance, 20 for dairy strength (used to be called dairy character) 10 for body capacity.

I have been consistent on this forum in advocating that people starting out choose registered stock. Others say that if you are not showing then it doesn't matter. I personally like the documentation on an animals history. But, I'm a bit of a history buff, I've researched my own geneology.

I would like to clarify one thing though. Those milk "stars" on an animals pedigree have nothing to do with the results of a " show". They are based on the results of a milk test. If you aren't interested in showing, but are interested in output, that is where you should focus and I have a personal example. We have a doe Ginger who is one of the first we bought. We knew she was registered, but we didn't really know anything about here history at the time because we were just starting out. When we got her papers we saw quite a few milking stars in her back ground. She is our best milker. On her 4th freshening we got a touch over 2 quarts per day from her. We just got lucky. Ginger has never won in the show ring, but we are incorporating her kids into our breeding program. But, I can tell you she's a great milker but if I don't have documentation then it's just my word. That's why we are going to enter her into an ADGA supervised 24 milk test in May. You are observed by an ADGA official milking her out on Thurs. 12 hours later you milk her, the official weighs the milk and takes a sample. 12 hours later you milk her again the milk is weighed and another sample is taken. The samples are sent to a lab and tested for protein and butter fat content. There is a formula based on the output, protein and butter fat to determine if a milk star is earned. If we get this milk star when we sell a kid then we can document what we tell them. I like data.
 
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OneFineAcre

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I thought of something else too. All of the items that SBC mentions in her last post, I would call related to an animal being "thrifty" or "hardy" something that you definitely want in livestock.

One thing you can research with animals that are registered through their pedigrees is the number of productive years their ancestors had. I have a buck whose aunt (his sire's twin sister and litter mate) freshened until she was 12 years old. Sometimes more than once per year. Knowing that your animals come from stock that had long productive lives is important too.
 

taylorm17

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One Fine Acre- I didn't see the question about dog and goat showing. But for whoever asked, I have not showed goats, but have watched videos and researched it. From what I have seen they are fairly similar. you have to 'set' up your goat, walk around the judge, switch sides, the judge touches your goat and such. I've never really shown thought so I am not a very reliable source here.

Edit: Also from what I have read, you also still need to really know your animal.
 

OneFineAcre

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One Fine Acre- I didn't see the question about dog and goat showing. But for whoever asked, I have not showed goats, but have watched videos and researched it. From what I have seen they are fairly similar. you have to 'set' up your goat, walk around the judge, switch sides, the judge touches your goat and such. I've never really shown thought so I am not a very reliable source here.

Edit: Also from what I have read, you also still need to really know your animal.

I wasn't really referring on the "how to show".
You are right, hoow you show a goat is similar to what I have seen watching the Westminster Kennel dog show on TV, which we do every year.

My comment was more in response to comments about the "show world". SBC said she would never show goats because she was "too familiar with the show world and what goes on it." from her past experience showing dogs. I think there may be an impression about people being petty, arguing, and cut throat. I've read other comments to that effect on here as well in reference to showing.

We just haven't experienced any of those issues ourselves. We have found the people to be very nice. Of course, there are some people who take it very serious, much more so than we do. And, we've never showed at an ADGA National Show or anything like that, which I could see being that way.

I guess like all things, it's all what you make of it, or what you want to take from the experience. I just know what we are looking for. I'm mostly looking to spend time with my family. Can't speak for others.

That was more what my comment was about.
 
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Southern by choice

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One Fine it is not about show or no show. It is about the whole picture. I would like to say I did not say showing and milk testing were the same thing. I like data also. There again that data is only part of the story.

The health of a goat is very important. You are on a dry lot- true backyard environment, your animals are dry lotted. Parasite issues will be minimal for you. Not everyone will be raising their goats in that environment so having animals that live off the land and are parasite resistant will be key in that environment. Titles and tests are great but it is never the full picture.

Great pedigrees can and often do still produce animals that may not quite measure up. There is generally a small percentage that will achieve the highest of "marks".

You have been in goats for 4-5 years and you have limited experience in the show world. Yes it is fun, yes there are great people, yes there are those that strive for excellence but you still miss the point. I am not anti show at all what is disturbing is how you continually turn this into something it is not. Same goes for milk testing. If you bothered to read earlier posts, based on the posters needs, I did recommend he look at starred dairy goats.

You are raising goats for a fun hobby. I raise goats and all animals on my farm for providing for a family of eleven. For us it is a health and life choice.

OFA you state that without the milk testing and documentation then it is "just my world". Could be...Some will rely on papers alone. I do not. I take up a stool and sit down and watch the goat get milked. I can see firsthand the output. Most I know in the goat world are milking for their families, they do not care about any of that, they don't have time for that... they simply will milk in front of the person, pull out their quarts milked etc.
IMO both are great measurements.
I also take home a fecal and run it, after I find out when the last time a goat was de-wormed. I can determine a great deal from that alone. Papers do not tell you that the goat kidded and one kid is always born dead, papers don't tell you that double teats are in the line, papers don't tell you a goat has environmental allergies, papers don't tell you how many offspring have shoulders turned out, poor pasterns and the list goes on.

There are advantages of registered animals but I think it is fair to all enthusiasts to share the bigger picture. We may agree to disagree. At the end of the day it is not my goal to promote "my breed" or "my way"... it is outreach to the goat community and laying out the bigger picture to help them achieve their desired goals, whether that be registered stock with a desire to potentially show or registered stock for family use, unregistered animals, cross breeds, complete "live off the land" goats etc.

The bigger picture IMO is always the most important thing and many new to the goat world do not have enough experience to know what that entails. Last year we had a woman who had a Boer herd... her animals were dying left and right from parasite blooms and cocci issues. 2012-2013 in NC was one of the worst ever with rain... 3 straight seasons and no real hot summer like usual, many farms lost kids to cocci, many were devastated. The lady decided NO MORE BOERS. She had something like 10 goats die in a matter of weeks, does prolapsing etc... she decided she was going with Kiko's. She wanted to buy 3-4 does, after hearing her story I told her she should wait a few months. Simply, I told her she would be wasting several thousand dollars, because although the Kiko does we had available had no parasite issue, no cocci issues and were extremely hardy you simply cannot take these goats subject them to that kind of environment and think they wouldn't be affected. IMO that would be unethical. We offered to hold the goats. She wasn't happy and in the end we didn't hear back. She was new to goats and had the impression that the kikos were some kind of supergoats. They are super great but still, they are not invincible.

I leave this for food for thought... yes it is a canine story and not goat but the principle still applies. Some years ago when I was working one of my male German Shepherd Dogs in Schutzhund I was at a late night practice/training session. I was looking at the club and sat it to see what was what...A lady beside me was talking about her bitch that was on the field. A Belgian Malinois, she had purchased for $7,000. BTW- this was in the 90's. The dog was in the field working, the protection phase. The lady laughed and said that's my girl... she is a high scorer! (She had attained a SCH III). Then the lady said, "yep she is one heck of a dog but I swear if someone came into my house and threw the sleeve on the ground that dog would be on the sleeve forever, they could rape me, rob my house blind and that dog would never leave the sleeve."

The point to that... Unbelievable accomplishments by the bitch, high scorer, many titles... but not the whole picture.

To the poster- I apologize in advance for the response. I did however feel the need to respond to OFA and his usual response. For the record I am not "anti" show, I just have many years of experience in that environment... canines, goats, cattle, horses, poultry, etc... still all the same. Pro's and con's to all.
 

OneFineAcre

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Scooby 308,
As is often the case sometimes the original posters questions get's sidetracked. One of the things I love about this forum is the free flowing nature of it. You get people together who are passionate and have different opinions and experiences then that's what you get.
You asked about breeds but seemed to come to Nigerians on your own. I think they are a great choice, but I am biased. I also think that the experimental mini's (cross between ND and standard) are a good choice for a homestead. I think you made a comment earlier about feeding excess milk to pigs, so I feel like production is important to you. I wish I could have some pigs, that is a great choice. I've also heard of people giving them the whey from cheese making. I have also found the breed to be good for many of the things that SBC mentioned. We've never had a problem with worms. We have had over 30 kids in 5 years and never had a kidding difficulty. One thing she didn't mention that we have observed is that in 5 years we have never had a single case of mastitis. I think we can take some credit as far as our animal husbandry practices, but I think the breed deserves a lot of the credit too.

My family and I are not "show breeders" We are just a family who bought 3 pet goats 5 years ago and thought it would be fun if our daughter who was 5 years old at the time showed them in the youth show at the NC State fair. We have not been disappointed. it has turned into probably the most enjoyable activity that our entire family participates in together. We have met some wonderfully nice people who are now some of our closest friends. We show in 4 shows a year now. We never worry about the other kids that our daughter is hanging out with, or her running around the show, or the goat barn.

I have no experience with the dog showing world. Seems like it might be tough. I can't compare the two because I have no basis for comparison.

We breed our animals based on what we like. We have different types of animals. I've got one doe who is 22 1/4' tall. We are trying to mix different body types, udder shapes, to produce quality dairy goats. If a judge likes them, great. As far as breeding just for udders, that wouldn't be productive anyway if you are showing. Udder is only 35 points out of 100 on a show score card. 35 points for general appearance, 20 for dairy strength (used to be called dairy character) 10 for body capacity.

I have been consistent on this forum in advocating that people starting out choose registered stock. Others say that if you are not showing then it doesn't matter. I personally like the documentation on an animals history. But, I'm a bit of a history buff, I've researched my own geneology.

I would like to clarify one thing though. Those milk "stars" on an animals pedigree have nothing to do with the results of a " show". They are based on the results of a milk test. If you aren't interested in showing, but are interested in output, that is where you should focus and I have a personal example. We have a doe Ginger who is one of the first we bought. We knew she was registered, but we didn't really know anything about here history at the time because we were just starting out. When we got her papers we saw quite a few milking stars in her back ground. She is our best milker. On her 4th freshening we got a touch over 2 quarts per day from her. We just got lucky. Ginger has never won in the show ring, but we are incorporating her kids into our breeding program. But, I can tell you she's a great milker but if I don't have documentation then it's just my word. That's why we are going to enter her into an ADGA supervised 24 milk test in May. You are observed by an ADGA official milking her out on Thurs. 12 hours later you milk her, the official weighs the milk and takes a sample. 12 hours later you milk her again the milk is weighed and another sample is taken. The samples are sent to a lab and tested for protein and butter fat content. There is a formula based on the output, protein and butter fat to determine if a milk star is earned. If we get this milk star when we sell a kid then we can document what we tell them. I like data.

One Fine it is not about show or no show. It is about the whole picture. I would like to say I did not say showing and milk testing were the same thing. I like data also. There again that data is only part of the story.

The health of a goat is very important. You are on a dry lot- true backyard environment, your animals are dry lotted. Parasite issues will be minimal for you. Not everyone will be raising their goats in that environment so having animals that live off the land and are parasite resistant will be key in that environment. Titles and tests are great but it is never the full picture.

Great pedigrees can and often do still produce animals that may not quite measure up. There is generally a small percentage that will achieve the highest of "marks".

You have been in goats for 4-5 years and you have limited experience in the show world. Yes it is fun, yes there are great people, yes there are those that strive for excellence but you still miss the point. I am not anti show at all what is disturbing is how you continually turn this into something it is not. Same goes for milk testing. If you bothered to read earlier posts, based on the posters needs, I did recommend he look at starred dairy goats.

You are raising goats for a fun hobby. I raise goats and all animals on my farm for providing for a family of eleven. For us it is a health and life choice.

OFA you state that without the milk testing and documentation then it is "just my world". Could be...Some will rely on papers alone. I do not. I take up a stool and sit down and watch the goat get milked. I can see firsthand the output. Most I know in the goat world are milking for their families, they do not care about any of that, they don't have time for that... they simply will milk in front of the person, pull out their quarts milked etc.
IMO both are great measurements.
I also take home a fecal and run it, after I find out when the last time a goat was de-wormed. I can determine a great deal from that alone. Papers do not tell you that the goat kidded and one kid is always born dead, papers don't tell you that double teats are in the line, papers don't tell you a goat has environmental allergies, papers don't tell you how many offspring have shoulders turned out, poor pasterns and the list goes on.

There are advantages of registered animals but I think it is fair to all enthusiasts to share the bigger picture. We may agree to disagree. At the end of the day it is not my goal to promote "my breed" or "my way"... it is outreach to the goat community and laying out the bigger picture to help them achieve their desired goals, whether that be registered stock with a desire to potentially show or registered stock for family use, unregistered animals, cross breeds, complete "live off the land" goats etc.

The bigger picture IMO is always the most important thing and many new to the goat world do not have enough experience to know what that entails. Last year we had a woman who had a Boer herd... her animals were dying left and right from parasite blooms and cocci issues. 2012-2013 in NC was one of the worst ever with rain... 3 straight seasons and no real hot summer like usual, many farms lost kids to cocci, many were devastated. The lady decided NO MORE BOERS. She had something like 10 goats die in a matter of weeks, does prolapsing etc... she decided she was going with Kiko's. She wanted to buy 3-4 does, after hearing her story I told her she should wait a few months. Simply, I told her she would be wasting several thousand dollars, because although the Kiko does we had available had no parasite issue, no cocci issues and were extremely hardy you simply cannot take these goats subject them to that kind of environment and think they wouldn't be affected. IMO that would be unethical. We offered to hold the goats. She wasn't happy and in the end we didn't hear back. She was new to goats and had the impression that the kikos were some kind of supergoats. They are super great but still, they are not invincible.

I leave this for food for thought... yes it is a canine story and not goat but the principle still applies. Some years ago when I was working one of my male German Shepherd Dogs in Schutzhund I was at a late night practice/training session. I was looking at the club and sat it to see what was what...A lady beside me was talking about her bitch that was on the field. A Belgian Malinois, she had purchased for $7,000. BTW- this was in the 90's. The dog was in the field working, the protection phase. The lady laughed and said that's my girl... she is a high scorer! (She had attained a SCH III). Then the lady said, "yep she is one heck of a dog but I swear if someone came into my house and threw the sleeve on the ground that dog would be on the sleeve forever, they could rape me, rob my house blind and that dog would never leave the sleeve."

The point to that... Unbelievable accomplishments by the bitch, high scorer, many titles... but not the whole picture.

To the poster- I apologize in advance for the response. I did however feel the need to respond to OFA and his usual response. For the record I am not "anti" show, I just have many years of experience in that environment... canines, goats, cattle, horses, poultry, etc... still all the same. Pro's and con's to all.


One Fine it is not about show or no show. It is about the whole picture. I would like to say I did not say showing and milk testing were the same thing. I like data also. There again that data is only part of the story.

The health of a goat is very important. You are on a dry lot- true backyard environment, your animals are dry lotted. Parasite issues will be minimal for you. Not everyone will be raising their goats in that environment so having animals that live off the land and are parasite resistant will be key in that environment. Titles and tests are great but it is never the full picture.

Great pedigrees can and often do still produce animals that may not quite measure up. There is generally a small percentage that will achieve the highest of "marks".

You have been in goats for 4-5 years and you have limited experience in the show world. Yes it is fun, yes there are great people, yes there are those that strive for excellence but you still miss the point. I am not anti show at all what is disturbing is how you continually turn this into something it is not. Same goes for milk testing. If you bothered to read earlier posts, based on the posters needs, I did recommend he look at starred dairy goats.

You are raising goats for a fun hobby. I raise goats and all animals on my farm for providing for a family of eleven. For us it is a health and life choice.

OFA you state that without the milk testing and documentation then it is "just my world". Could be...Some will rely on papers alone. I do not. I take up a stool and sit down and watch the goat get milked. I can see firsthand the output. Most I know in the goat world are milking for their families, they do not care about any of that, they don't have time for that... they simply will milk in front of the person, pull out their quarts milked etc.
IMO both are great measurements.
I also take home a fecal and run it, after I find out when the last time a goat was de-wormed. I can determine a great deal from that alone. Papers do not tell you that the goat kidded and one kid is always born dead, papers don't tell you that double teats are in the line, papers don't tell you a goat has environmental allergies, papers don't tell you how many offspring have shoulders turned out, poor pasterns and the list goes on.

There are advantages of registered animals but I think it is fair to all enthusiasts to share the bigger picture. We may agree to disagree. At the end of the day it is not my goal to promote "my breed" or "my way"... it is outreach to the goat community and laying out the bigger picture to help them achieve their desired goals, whether that be registered stock with a desire to potentially show or registered stock for family use, unregistered animals, cross breeds, complete "live off the land" goats etc.

The bigger picture IMO is always the most important thing and many new to the goat world do not have enough experience to know what that entails. Last year we had a woman who had a Boer herd... her animals were dying left and right from parasite blooms and cocci issues. 2012-2013 in NC was one of the worst ever with rain... 3 straight seasons and no real hot summer like usual, many farms lost kids to cocci, many were devastated. The lady decided NO MORE BOERS. She had something like 10 goats die in a matter of weeks, does prolapsing etc... she decided she was going with Kiko's. She wanted to buy 3-4 does, after hearing her story I told her she should wait a few months. Simply, I told her she would be wasting several thousand dollars, because although the Kiko does we had available had no parasite issue, no cocci issues and were extremely hardy you simply cannot take these goats subject them to that kind of environment and think they wouldn't be affected. IMO that would be unethical. We offered to hold the goats. She wasn't happy and in the end we didn't hear back. She was new to goats and had the impression that the kikos were some kind of supergoats. They are super great but still, they are not invincible.

I leave this for food for thought... yes it is a canine story and not goat but the principle still applies. Some years ago when I was working one of my male German Shepherd Dogs in Schutzhund I was at a late night practice/training session. I was looking at the club and sat it to see what was what...A lady beside me was talking about her bitch that was on the field. A Belgian Malinois, she had purchased for $7,000. BTW- this was in the 90's. The dog was in the field working, the protection phase. The lady laughed and said that's my girl... she is a high scorer! (She had attained a SCH III). Then the lady said, "yep she is one heck of a dog but I swear if someone came into my house and threw the sleeve on the ground that dog would be on the sleeve forever, they could rape me, rob my house blind and that dog would never leave the sleeve."

The point to that... Unbelievable accomplishments by the bitch, high scorer, many titles... but not the whole picture.

To the poster- I apologize in advance for the response. I did however feel the need to respond to OFA and his usual response. For the record I am not "anti" show, I just have many years of experience in that environment... canines, goats, cattle, horses, poultry, etc... still all the same. Pro's and con's to all.

Edited:

I wrote a very snarky reply last night. Going to delete, declare a truce and let SBC have the last word.
 
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Scooby308

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No harm, no foul. I grew up on a horse farm and know the ins and out of registration.

The best pedigreed stud and mare still throw duds. It happens. But their offspring bring a considerably higher price come sale time.

Conversely I remember going to the Red Mile and my GF buying a pacer that he spent the summer converting to a trotter. We showed him three times that summer. My GF paid $200 for him and sold him for $3500. That horse had all his papers as a pacer, and was a looser. Trained him to trot, and was a fabulous show horse. We used to also buy broke down horses from the Amish, fatten them up and train them. They would make great roadsters.

So there are pros and cons in each camp with horses and I would guess that is true with goats.
 
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