Horns or Not?

[JoyfulGoats]

Hi everyone,

I will be purchasing 2 doelings this summer, which means that the kids I will buy will soon be born. I've been hesistant about the horn issue for almost a year now, and thought I had decided to keep them, but am now once again unsure. I know all the benifits of keeping the horns, but I'm worried about the injuries to humans and to other goats. My goats will be used as productive pets, so I want to be able to cuddle them, lay down beside them, etc., which might be risky with the horns. However, I don't like making them suffer a burning iron.

So, people that have had horns (or still do), what have you experienced? A lot of people say they prefer disbudding, but haven't actually ever had horned goats, so I would like to have the opinion of people who have. So far, half of the people I've asked say they've had no issues, and the other half say they have. But the sample size is small. If it didn't hurt the goats, I would definitely disbud.

 

[NH homesteader]

I have had both. I will no longer own horned goats. Mine threw his head back and almost took out my daughter with his horns one day. Complete accident but would have been bad, like lose an eyeball bad.

@Southern by choice has good stories about horned vs. disbudded goats.

They get over it pretty fast, it's worth having them disbudded.

 

[Southern by choice]

I have had polled, horned, disbudded.
The ONLY goats I keep horned are my Kikos.

I have written an article on this and somewhere in there is "Millie's story" the link is there.
It is a long read and desperately needs updated.

Before I attach the link, I just want to say I once was a huge advocate for horned goats. NO LONGER!
Sometimes time allows you to evolve and see the long term ramifications.
I learned and to this day I show all our clients Millie's horns - you'll understand after reading. Once people see them and touch them in person that is it they know immediately they do not want horns.

I am very sympathetic towards the hesitation.

Since I wrote the rticles a few things have changed
- no longer use anesthesia (had far too many issues with it)
- I do it myself!
- I use ice packs between burns

after icing we either give a bottle or put them back on mom if they are being dam raised- they are bopping around like nothing has happened.

These articles and posts have lots of pictures- some graphic

https://www.backyardherds.com/resources/horns-dis-bud-polled.31/

at the bottom is the link to Millie's story ( https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/de-horned-2yr-old-doe-week-3-update.28257/page-2#post-358403 )

here is another additional pic essay in reguard to a broken scur that almost cause my doe to bleed out. It was horrible-

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/warning-graphic-unnatural-scur-breaks-off.34295/

 

[Latestarter]

JMO... Just curious, but what are "all the benefits of keeping the horns"? I can think of only one benefit and that is to have something to grab hold of to hold the goat/ control its head. Once you and the goat know each other (a pet?) the goat should come right up to you and there should be no real reason to have to grab the horns to control the head. The real detractors and potential detractors far outweigh the "benefit(s)" IMHO... As for "hurting the goat" Let's be realistic and rational please... we as humans do a LOT of things that "hurt" for various reasons, to ourselves as well as our animals, and it's generally not for giggles and grins... it's for specific reasons (some admittedly better than others). The hurt/pain is temporary and short lived in duration and the benefits are life long.

Since you might ask for examples; removing dew claws, de-clawing cats (protect our furniture and skin), docking tails and ears, in humans there are all kinds of body alterations done but any cosmetic procedure you can think of would qualify, etc. It can be a long list. Disbudding a baby goat is done for many reasons and is intended to be for the benefit of the owner as well as the goat and other goats it shares space with. It's for the benefit of the health and well being of all involved. again, JMHO.

 

[NH homesteader]

Sorry but disbudding is so much less painful than declawing cats. I would say the difference between those examples and disbudding is that most of those things make life easier. Disbudding makes life SAFER.

 

[JoyfulGoats]

JMO... Just curious, but what are "all the benefits of keeping the horns"? I can think of only one benefit and that is to have something to grab hold of to hold the goat/ control its head. Once you and the goat know each other (a pet?) the goat should come right up to you and there should be no real reason to have to grab the horns to control the head. The real detractors and potential detractors far outweigh the "benefit(s)" IMHO... As for "hurting the goat" Let's be realistic and rational please... we as humans do a LOT of things that "hurt" for various reasons, to ourselves as well as our animals, and it's generally not for giggles and grins... it's for specific reasons (some admittedly better than others). The hurt/pain is temporary and short lived in duration and the benefits are life long.

Since you might ask for examples; removing dew claws, de-clawing cats (protect our furniture and skin), docking tails and ears, in humans there are all kinds of body alterations done but any cosmetic procedure you can think of would qualify, etc. It can be a long list. Disbudding a baby goat is done for many reasons and is intended to be for the benefit of the owner as well as the goat and other goats it shares space with. It's for the benefit of the health and well being of all involved. again, JMHO.

By benefits, I meant that horns help cool the animal and can be used to stratch. I do not consider the examples you listed to be at all equivalent, because as @NH homesteader said, they are just for ease, not for safety. Disbudding has benefits to both the animals and the humans.


Anyways, I've been convinced to disbud. When I visited a farm with horned goats, the owner gave us treats to give them, and we got swarmed by large horned goats, which I found stressful since they would put their paws on me to stand up. Of course, if they were my goats I wouldn't be as stressed, but I really want to be able to fully enjoy my goats, which I don't think I could with the horns.

@Southern by choice thank you for the links in the information, it really helped to make my choice

 

[Southern by choice]

@JoyfulGoats I am glad you found the info helpful.

Because we still keep our kikos with horns I can tell you even that is a PITB! We have had to lift 200+ lb bucks out of the trees because they get stuck! UGH!

I know there is some study of horns keeping goats cool but I do wonder about this because we have a lot of polled genetics... I haven't seen any difference.

I honestly don't like to disbud but I don't mind disbudding.... I think it is every breeders worse chore BUT I do it because I feel that I can do it my way, icing between burns and comforting immediately. I also know my kids and I know when they look like enough is enough even if we aren't done. Hard to explain.
I also give them kisses and love on them.... I know- this comforts me more than them but I do it anyway
There is always risk and learning can be tough. Bucks are always harder and generally about 50 % get some kind of scur...

When I do it I will never do it in a rushed state, always when I am relaxed, and I try to keep the process peaceful and focused. I don't like doing more than 2-3 in a day. The other day I did 6. I am behind due to a shoulder injury and I had to wait for help. I took breaks between goats to keep my mind relaxed.

 

[JoyfulGoats]

@Southern by choice I'm not too worried about the heat because I'm getting Nigerian Dwarfs, which come from a hotter climate. If they get too hot I'll just wet their fur.

For your bucks, do you do the double 8 or the same way as does? Which iron do you use?

 

[Southern by choice]

I use the rhinehart x30 1/2 tip some say .55
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/x-30-electric-dehorners

No we don't don't do figure 8's. Some swear by it and some say they still get 50% scurs... so why put them through more burn time.... I did have to do a wider burn one one because I let them go a few days to long. Not happy about it but having two people is best.

I also do use the box but still have two people, myself and another.

Let me explain why the box-
actually maybe I should take some pics tomorrow and update the article.
This way you can see what I mean and why it can be better for some.

 

[JoyfulGoats]

Ok, thank you. I will definitely use a disbudding box, because I would be too worried otherwise. At least I have time to get everything, since they will be disbudded by the breeder this time, and they won't give birth for another 2 years (the way I have it planned)