Housing LGD Puppy (start as you mean to go?)

[NH homesteader]

What is eye entropia? Does it cayse blindness? Any chance she has difficulty seeing and is part of why she snapped?

I know you aren't looking for people to help with her as you have already made your decision. But I think it's important to figure out what you could have done differently with her before knowing how to properly raise the next one.

I'm not trying to question your decision, but why do you feel you need a dog for your chickens? I personally would secure the chicken run. A dog, particularly a lone dog, can only bond with a chicken so much... Also most guardian dogs (I have never had a LGD but I have had more farm guardian type dogs) are not going to be happy on a runner.

I have a 4 year old daughter and understand how you feel. It's scary to have an animal be aggressive with your child.

 

[Megs501]

No- the food thing didn't start after that. She had always been food dominant, but we were mostly WITH her because we were able to put her on a leash or runner while feeding the other animals.
That lasted nearly a year.

Then more recently she started running off most of the time, but not always when she knew we were going to put her on the runner, or work with the leash (which was just me leashing her while we did my chores together .. and she always complied once on the leash).
That is when we noticed she would run the cows/ducks off from their food, because we couldn't be right with her-since she wouldn't come for the leash ... make sense? Sorry if I wasn't clear before.

And no, I don't think I was being contradictory.

Sometimes she would run off when we called her to be on the leash or runner.
but until more recently and even AFTER the running off behavior began, she would just let us clip the leash or runner right on- no fighting, as in pulling away, mouthing at me, physically fighting me about it.

I don't consider running off before I even put my hand on her collar to be the same as fighting me about going on the runner or leash. My point was- she may have said "hey- Im not coming near you because I dont want to be on the leash/runner, so I running off," But she has never pulled away, mouthed on us, or fought us once we were within a few feet of her to put her on the leash or runner. She was submissive at that point. She has never shown aggression to this point towards us in any way. We brush her, pet her, the kids lay on her ...

And honestly, if the same thing happened with any other dog, my husband would have already put a bullet it in it. He has no hesitation about shooting Thora. I just feel like maybe she would have a better chance training in an environment without so many animals and kids, where she doesn't have the temptation and can better succeed.

I am a little confused. You posted:
"Then she started resenting the runner and as soon as she knew we were going to put her on there, she would run off barking."

Followed by:
"That's when we noticed more problems start with her chasing the 600lb steers away from their food, running the ducks off from theirs. Then she made contact with my 6yo over a stick. I was right there, my daughter was going to get her for the runner, which has always been her job and THora has never had a problem with letting her do it."

Following that you posted:
"It wasn't until she became difficult to put on the runner or leash (which wasn't EVERY day, we weren't neglecting her. maybe spoiling her too much..) that the more consistent training stopped because she wouldn't come all the time, only sometimes. but she NEVER fought going on the runner or being led on the leash."

This food thing didn't start until after you started tying her up? She became difficult to get on the runner or leash but NEVER fought going on the runner or leash? Is that not contradictory? And AFTER she became difficult to put on the runner you still asked a 6 Y/O to do it? No matter how smart or well bonded to Thora she is, a 6 Y/O isn't really old enough to catch the 'clues' that an adult would. Not that adults don't get caught unaware!

I am no LGD expert (not by a long shot) and I understand that the safety of your children is PARAMOUNT and not at all unreasonable but "one half-swing and you are out", especially considering the preceding quoted pieces, seems a bit too fast. I don't see how something similar couldn't happen with ANY dog of ANY breed you might have or get.

You will find references here that LGDs are smarter than we are. I will bet Thora knew your daughter was collecting her to go on the runner. She can read your body language in a way people likely can't. But that doesn't answer the question of why she put her mouth on your daughter's hand/arm.

With regard to where the dog sleeps, porch or out near the coop and barn:
I was out in the barn with Merlin a couple of nights just before I returned him (*). He could be asleep in the barn alley, in his chosen spot across from the chicken coop (converted horse stall), one minute and out at the west fence line in under 10 seconds after something I didn't hear. Going out required running 25' down the alley (including through a wood gate that keeps the alpacas in their end of the barn) turning right down a 4' wide x 10' long passage, out a door, turning left and 25' more to get behind the barn and another 100'+ to the west fence line. All I'm trying to say here is that if the dog chooses to sleep on the porch AND can get out to the animals when necessary, I don't think that is a problem. In fact it might be sleeping on the porch because that is where it feels it can BEST keep an eye/ear not only on the animals but also its people rather than because s/he would rather be with the people than the animals.

* Long story shortened, wife couldn't deal with him doing his job at night. She couldn't learn to ignore him barking.

Hopefully my comments have not offended, they are not meant to!

 

[Megs501]

What is eye entropia? Does it cayse blindness? Any chance she has difficulty seeing and is part of why she snapped?

I know you aren't looking for people to help with her as you have already made your decision. But I think it's important to figure out what you could have done differently with her before knowing how to properly raise the next one.

I'm not trying to question your decision, but why do you feel you need a dog for your chickens? I personally would secure the chicken run. A dog, particularly a lone dog, can only bond with a chicken so much... Also most guardian dogs (I have never had a LGD but I have had more farm guardian type dogs) are not going to be happy on a runner.

I have a 4 year old daughter and understand how you feel. It's scary to have an animal be aggressive with your child.

Eye entropia is where the 3rd eye lid droops down (I think). It has something to do with the eye lid; the vet makes a slit and stitches it. I think she can see just fine?

We want a dog for the farm- but one that is more bonded to the animals than us. We live in the middle of no where on 40 acres, my husband is out of town a LOT, we have 4 small children and want a dog that is outside patroling some, but also there to run off coyotes and coons from the chickens and cows.

I just thought bonding it to the chickens would be best since there are lots of them and he could see them in the run all the time as a puppy. The cows have 15+ acres they run around on and the puppy won't have access to that right away, so it might be hard for him to bond to that. We plan to get more cattle, have calves, milk goats, etc and need a dog to keep them safe. Since it can take years for them to be trusty worthy, we wanted to start now.

 

[Latestarter]

I'm not an LGD expert. I own a 50/50 Pyr/Toli mix (my avatar) that I bought from a very experienced, reputable LGD owner with exceptional LGDs. My Mel was evaluated to be a 50/50 split between companion dog and LGD meaning he can do either equally well. I didn't have livestock when I got him so getting a pure LGD would have been foolish. He is just over 2 years old now and I was further delayed getting my livestock until this spring, at which time I will be training him to do his LGD job with goats. Mel is also more a watcher than a patroller LGD. So when I get a companion for him it will be a female and a patroller vice watcher. I think part of the issue here is you're trying to force the dog to do something that does not come naturally to the breed. Pyr's don't bond with birds, they bond with livestock (or with area as well... if they see it, they consider it their area to protect), more specifically goats/sheep, as they've been bred over thousands of years to do. It is the nature of the animal to also bond with the shepherd (you the owners) and as part of the job he/she will protect all your possessions along with the sheep/goats located within its area. Most LGDs will kill chickens when young until trained/broken from doing this. They (chickens) are excellent squeeky toys. Some LGD breeds are worse than others and it is dog specific as well.

It doesn't take years to make them trustworthy... The person I bought Mel from had 6 month old Pyr/Toli mix (Mel's siblings) pups working as full time LGDs with her goats. Her alpha LGD with the pups was only 18 months old and had been the primary LGD for almost a year. It takes proper handling and training and an understanding of what an LGD is and does, and how. They are extremely intelligent and very independent. They have a job to do and when you place the dog on a runner line or on a leash, you're stopping the dog from being able to do what they've been bred to do. How can the dog protect and drive off a threat if tied to a tree/runner? You have to treat the dog like a partner and work with it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with bonding with the dog and the dog bonding with you and the family. Why would you want a dog that didn't recognize you and your family as part of it's pack? You SHOULD be the alpha in that pack or you run the risk of the dog not allowing you to work with an injured animal or assisting your animals during birthing etc. It sounds to me like you have shown and demonstrated to the dog that you don't trust her, and therefore she doesn't trust you. Since she doesn't trust you, she will not respect you and not allow you to be alpha. What you are "wanting" and trying to train this dog to do is confusing it in a major way.

It sounds to me like what you really need is a farm dog to keep the area right around the house and chicken coop secure. Your/the LGD should be out with the livestock in the area he/she is assigned to protect and should be enclosed within that area by secure fencing. Other dogs should not be allowed in this area as doing so might cause the LGD to understand that it's OK with you for other dogs to enter which could cause problems with strays. The LGD should also be given time off and allowed to come out of his/her area and be at the house with the family and other dogs for a break and some loving/attention/play time. Most LGDs work best as a team, rather than by themselves. If you have a high predator load, a single LGD can get very stressed out and overworked trying to do the job.

The first priority should be good fencing... this to keep your animals in and to keep bad animals out. I can't provide answers as to how to "undo" the problems that your current LGD has. I believe that if you get another LGD you will end up with the same results if you try to do the same things you've done with the present one.

 

[NH homesteader]

I assume no medical issues that could be causing her behavior? Worms or anything?

I think it's good for a guardian dog to be bonded to you. A good farm dog will protect your animals because they are yours, and protect your property as well.

 

[frustratedearthmother]

EYELID ENTROPIAN: Entropion is an abnormality of the eyelids in which the eyelid "rolls" inward. This inward rolling often causes the hair on the surface of the eyelid to rub against the cornea (outer part of the eyeball) resulting in pain, corneal ulcers or corneal erosions. This corneal damage can also result in corneal scarring, that can interfere with vision.

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/eyelid-entropion-in-dogs

Certainly not a comfortable condition and without treatment can cause permanent damage. OUCH!

 

[Baymule]

You said that you have a barb wire fence. And you acknowledged that it will not hold your LGD in. I suggest that before you get another dog, that you put up the fence that will hold in, not only the dog, but goats and other livestock as well. I had Great Pyrenees before I got sheep. There was a HUGE learning curve, that was a year ago and we are still working on it. You might do better to build the fence and shelter first, get a few goats, then get a LGD to train to the goats. Kinda hard to train a dog to something that isn't even there, believe me, I know first hand.

I appreciate that you want to do things right, please don't take our advice as criticism.

I also have chickens. My GP's don't bond to the chickens, but they protect them as part of "their territory". The chickens live on "their" farm, thus they enjoy the protection of the dogs, but the dogs never show interest in them. The dogs will lick the sheep and lambs and show them attention. Our male GP isn't so bonded to the sheep, he would rather hang out in the yard. At night, we close up the sheep and open the gate to the front pasture so he can patrol the yard and pasture. This makes him happy.

 

[dejavoodoo114]

So, how have things gone? Everyone has different set ups for their farm and so different solutions work. It is nice to have so many wonderful opinions. What did you decide would work best for you?