If you buy more land than you want and then decide to sell what you don't need. You are definately limited in the ability to do so due to the zoning of the land by the powers that be for the size of the parcel for that particular area. I have tried to subdivide our 19.5 +/- acres (there is a one acre subdivision of 18 parcels just a mile away ) for 20 years with NO luck whatsoever.
How much land do I want?
- Thread starter LMK17
- Start date
greybeard
Herd Master
I left some comments regarding mineral rights and ag exemptions in your post at "Where am I-Where are you?"
https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/texas.6/page-16
Where to start?...
Hay requirement for cattle in South Texas. (San Antonio is considered South Texas)
I live about 1 full degree north of SA latitude, but we get more rainfall than you do. This last winter was almost non-existent. I still fed six one thousand lb round bales per adult cow here, beginning in November. Rule of thumb here is one roll of hay per adult cow per month...or 27-30 lbs per animal per day. There no such thing as 'stockpiling' grass here in this part of Texas. Once the first hard frost or freeze comes, the grass is gone, no matter how lush it was in spring or summer. Bahia, coastal, jiggs, tifton, common bermuda--it's all dead when the season changes and you won't see it green and growing again until March at the earliest.
Late Oct-mid Nov, yo can over seed your pasture with annual ryegrass at the rate of about 20 lbs/acre. No tilling or plowing needed--it just needs contact with the ground and rainfall within 1-2 weeks, then more rain about 2 weeks later and periodically thru the winter. It's a winter grass and will really grow good after the 1st of Feb thru spring, till the regular grass starts to push it out. A 200 lb protein lick tub on a little handfull of cows will probably last a month--maybe 45 days. A bucket of cake once/week will give them some protein and keep them coming to you too.
Good hay last year was $50-65/bale.
200lb Wind & Rain protein tub ran $95 locally.
A 50 lb sack of cake (range cubes) is around $9.
You can also supplement with range meal. It's cottonseed meal with salt mixed in as a limiter--salt keeps them from wolfing it all down at one feeding. I don't remember how much it is..I buy it by the ton.
I think, as someone else said, that you are worrying too much about maintenance and upkeep of pastures. Once fencing is done, it's pretty easy, even for an old man like me. Cows pretty much take care of themselves after calving season is done.
Mob intensive or rotational grazing does have benefits, but is very labor intensive and requires each paddock have a water supply. I leave my Chars year round on the big pastures and rotate the beefmasters back and forth across three 5-7 acre pastures as needed. (I have natural water sources everywhere)
My well (drilled in 2009) cost me $5200 to a depth of about 200'--good water and plenty of it. Turnkey, wired and piped to the house.
Wastewater treatment plant (aerobic) was right at $5800.
You, are in "the country of 1100 springs"..limestone country on 2 aquifers. They may have to go deep to keep your water lime free.
Personally, I would not start with less than 20 acres, even if it meant buying less house.
Reindeermama:
I did some radiation site remediation a little SW of Karnes City back in the late 80s early 90s. Background (natural) radiation there is 4x state average. That region is all part of the Karnes Uranium District. There was still a uranium tailings impoundment there at the time. Lots of Uranium in Karnes, Goliad, Zapata and Starr counties.
https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/texas.6/page-16
Where to start?...
Hay requirement for cattle in South Texas. (San Antonio is considered South Texas)
I live about 1 full degree north of SA latitude, but we get more rainfall than you do. This last winter was almost non-existent. I still fed six one thousand lb round bales per adult cow here, beginning in November. Rule of thumb here is one roll of hay per adult cow per month...or 27-30 lbs per animal per day. There no such thing as 'stockpiling' grass here in this part of Texas. Once the first hard frost or freeze comes, the grass is gone, no matter how lush it was in spring or summer. Bahia, coastal, jiggs, tifton, common bermuda--it's all dead when the season changes and you won't see it green and growing again until March at the earliest.
Late Oct-mid Nov, yo can over seed your pasture with annual ryegrass at the rate of about 20 lbs/acre. No tilling or plowing needed--it just needs contact with the ground and rainfall within 1-2 weeks, then more rain about 2 weeks later and periodically thru the winter. It's a winter grass and will really grow good after the 1st of Feb thru spring, till the regular grass starts to push it out. A 200 lb protein lick tub on a little handfull of cows will probably last a month--maybe 45 days. A bucket of cake once/week will give them some protein and keep them coming to you too.
Good hay last year was $50-65/bale.
200lb Wind & Rain protein tub ran $95 locally.
A 50 lb sack of cake (range cubes) is around $9.
You can also supplement with range meal. It's cottonseed meal with salt mixed in as a limiter--salt keeps them from wolfing it all down at one feeding. I don't remember how much it is..I buy it by the ton.
I think, as someone else said, that you are worrying too much about maintenance and upkeep of pastures. Once fencing is done, it's pretty easy, even for an old man like me. Cows pretty much take care of themselves after calving season is done.
Mob intensive or rotational grazing does have benefits, but is very labor intensive and requires each paddock have a water supply. I leave my Chars year round on the big pastures and rotate the beefmasters back and forth across three 5-7 acre pastures as needed. (I have natural water sources everywhere)
My well (drilled in 2009) cost me $5200 to a depth of about 200'--good water and plenty of it. Turnkey, wired and piped to the house.
Wastewater treatment plant (aerobic) was right at $5800.
You, are in "the country of 1100 springs"..limestone country on 2 aquifers. They may have to go deep to keep your water lime free.
Personally, I would not start with less than 20 acres, even if it meant buying less house.
Reindeermama:
I did some radiation site remediation a little SW of Karnes City back in the late 80s early 90s. Background (natural) radiation there is 4x state average. That region is all part of the Karnes Uranium District. There was still a uranium tailings impoundment there at the time. Lots of Uranium in Karnes, Goliad, Zapata and Starr counties.
- Thread starter
- #83
LMK17
Loving the herd life
Dang it! We thought we had found our new place. We even made an offer on it. Unfortunately, the owner won't take a penny less than asking price, and our realtor is certain it's priced about $25K too high. 
Puts us in a bit of an conundrum. I love the land. Looks like good grazing, some scattered trees, a pond, and really solid looking fences and cross fences. The house, though, is about 50 years old. There's really nothing wrong with it. It actually looks like it has great bones and is well maintained, but we'd need to do a few things to make it work for us, such as putting up a wall to create a 3rd bedroom. And-- this is really picky of me-- there isn't a bathtub in the place, only shower stalls, and with little kids, I'd really like to have a tub. (DD loves nothing more than playing with her toy animals in the tub until the water turns cold. Kinda hate to take that little pleasure from her.) So by the time we put up a wall & reroute electrical for a bedroom and put in a tub, if we overpay by $25K to begin with, the house is going to be quite overpriced, and it'll still be a 50 year old place with 50 year old plumbing and electrical. ![:\](/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/side.png "side :\")
But the land is GREAT and the mineral rights are still attached and potentially would convey. Bah. We're just going to sit tight for now and look at other options, such as building; maybe we'll come back to this one later. I do hate to pass up a really good property over $25K... I think we could build quite a nice place with our budget, but it's a lot more time and energy than just buying an existing farm... WWYD?
Good to know about the grass vs hay. Thanks!
Well, with land prices being what they are around here, probably buying too much is moot. We just aren't budgeted for more than we think we'll reasonably need. And though I do agree with those who say extra land is nice as a buffer, I would also worry, as you mentioned, that selling might not be as easy a prospect as it seems. At this point, we're looking at properties from about 15 acres-30 acres. I'd say 20-25 would be right on the mark.
Interesting about your winter hay requirements! I know some folks with cattle here, and I know for a fact they're not feeding anywhere near that much hay in the winter... I wonder what the difference could be? The little ranch I know most about is south of SA. The guy runs about 6-8 head of Angus cattle, 100% grass fed, year round on about 35 acres. He's very hands-off with the animals and doesn't even live on site. He has natural water features and checks on the cattle once a week or so. I know he goes through fewer than 10 round bales a year. I think it's more like 5 bales. I'm not good judge of cattle condition, but I've seen his animals in early spring, and they appear to be OK.
And they taste good. LOL I'm not doubting what you've said in the least. I just wonder why the big discrepancy?
Ryegrass does do great here! I've used it with very good results in my lawn. However, I did notice that the bermuda grass seemed not to do as well the spring/summer following overseeding with rye, and some research suggested that the rye can inhibit bermuda growth. (I've got mostly Sahara Bermuda in my backyard, and it's already at a disadvantage due to lots of leaf cover from trees.) I believe it's perennial rye more than the annual rye that is supposed to negatively affect warm season grasses. I wonder whether it would be a good idea to overseed a pasture with rye if I've got a summer stand of coastal bermuda...?
I hope I am overly concerned about pasture management! Anyway, it wouldn't be the first time that I've overthought something... I do realize that cattle can essentially take care of themselves, but I'm interested in maintaining as high a quality pasture as possible, and that seems like it may be more difficult to do with continuous grazing. From a more practical standpoint, if we get a piece of property that's a bit smaller than ideal, I would probably need to do rotational grazing in order maintain the stocking density required for the ag exemption. I could just let the exemption go, but there would be definite financial considerations with doing that.
And thanks for the pricing info! That's quite useful.
Puts us in a bit of an conundrum. I love the land. Looks like good grazing, some scattered trees, a pond, and really solid looking fences and cross fences. The house, though, is about 50 years old. There's really nothing wrong with it. It actually looks like it has great bones and is well maintained, but we'd need to do a few things to make it work for us, such as putting up a wall to create a 3rd bedroom. And-- this is really picky of me-- there isn't a bathtub in the place, only shower stalls, and with little kids, I'd really like to have a tub. (DD loves nothing more than playing with her toy animals in the tub until the water turns cold. Kinda hate to take that little pleasure from her.) So by the time we put up a wall & reroute electrical for a bedroom and put in a tub, if we overpay by $25K to begin with, the house is going to be quite overpriced, and it'll still be a 50 year old place with 50 year old plumbing and electrical. But the land is GREAT and the mineral rights are still attached and potentially would convey. Bah. We're just going to sit tight for now and look at other options, such as building; maybe we'll come back to this one later. I do hate to pass up a really good property over $25K... I think we could build quite a nice place with our budget, but it's a lot more time and energy than just buying an existing farm... WWYD? Good to know about the grass vs hay. Thanks!
Well, with land prices being what they are around here, probably buying too much is moot. We just aren't budgeted for more than we think we'll reasonably need. And though I do agree with those who say extra land is nice as a buffer, I would also worry, as you mentioned, that selling might not be as easy a prospect as it seems. At this point, we're looking at properties from about 15 acres-30 acres. I'd say 20-25 would be right on the mark.
Interesting about your winter hay requirements! I know some folks with cattle here, and I know for a fact they're not feeding anywhere near that much hay in the winter... I wonder what the difference could be? The little ranch I know most about is south of SA. The guy runs about 6-8 head of Angus cattle, 100% grass fed, year round on about 35 acres. He's very hands-off with the animals and doesn't even live on site. He has natural water features and checks on the cattle once a week or so. I know he goes through fewer than 10 round bales a year. I think it's more like 5 bales. I'm not good judge of cattle condition, but I've seen his animals in early spring, and they appear to be OK.
And they taste good. LOL I'm not doubting what you've said in the least. I just wonder why the big discrepancy?Ryegrass does do great here! I've used it with very good results in my lawn. However, I did notice that the bermuda grass seemed not to do as well the spring/summer following overseeding with rye, and some research suggested that the rye can inhibit bermuda growth. (I've got mostly Sahara Bermuda in my backyard, and it's already at a disadvantage due to lots of leaf cover from trees.) I believe it's perennial rye more than the annual rye that is supposed to negatively affect warm season grasses. I wonder whether it would be a good idea to overseed a pasture with rye if I've got a summer stand of coastal bermuda...?
I hope I am overly concerned about pasture management! Anyway, it wouldn't be the first time that I've overthought something...
I do realize that cattle can essentially take care of themselves, but I'm interested in maintaining as high a quality pasture as possible, and that seems like it may be more difficult to do with continuous grazing. From a more practical standpoint, if we get a piece of property that's a bit smaller than ideal, I would probably need to do rotational grazing in order maintain the stocking density required for the ag exemption. I could just let the exemption go, but there would be definite financial considerations with doing that.And thanks for the pricing info! That's quite useful.
greybeard
Herd Master
That is hard to say. Could be the maternal condition..whether they have calves sucking in winter or not--open or growing a calf. I try to have calves weaned and sold by winter but not always. There's a big difference in E. Texas climate and South Texas/hill country climate. Once I start feeding hay, I never let them run out, not even for a day. I can't afford them to lose conditioning and for the yearlings, I want them to gain thru the winter too. Regardless of location tho, each mature animal needs about 28 lbs of dry matter per day--more when a wet cold front comes thru. They can handle lots of cold and lots of rain but not much of both combined. East Texas winters are wet. Wet hides with wind even at 45deg F is hard on them and ups their energy requirements.
Bruce
Herd Master
Yet
They may find someone to overpay but if not, the price will come down.If you are really interested in this property, you can get an indipendant appraiser to appraise the property , present the results to the seller if lower value and stick with what you are willing to pay. Unless you are paying cash, the lender will have the property appraised and if the value is enough to cover the loan, they will lend you the money , if not NO SALE .
- Thread starter
- #87
LMK17
Loving the herd life
I'll bet that's it. Our friend is running stockers that's he's growing out to market weight, so he doesn't typically have any nursing mamas. He did get a few calves last year, though, when a neighbor's bull got to some of his heifers. I'll have to ask how his hay consumption might've changed while the cows were pregnant or had calves on them. Our winter tends to be pretty dry, too. We lived in Houston for a little while, and it was much wetter there.
- Thread starter
- #88
LMK17
Loving the herd life
Wahoo! We found the perfect farm!! 
I mean, this place is GREAT! It's a working, diversified organic farm. The house is fabulous, the land is lovely, it's a great size for us, and it is PRODUCTIVE. It's amazing what they've managed to support on fairly small acreage. My entire family is in love with the place and the owners seem like really great, above-board folks. I'm walkin' on clouds over here.
Here's the downside. They accepted our offer, and we're prequalified for a VA loan. We qualify for well over the agreed upon price, in fact. No problems there. BUT the gentleman who owns the place informed us today that he spoke with some mortgage people and they told him that a Texas Ag Exempt property won't qualify for either a VA or a Conventional Loan-- something about banks wanting to give loans for *just* the property and not bother with the ag exemption. In fact, he's concerned that going the VA or Conventional route would require him and his wife to pay the roll back tax on their place, even though they've been actively farming for several years. We're going the For Sale By Owner route, and we don't have a real estate agent anymore. (Amazingly, we found this place the same day we fired our realtor.) We'll involved an attorney a bit further down the road, but we were supposed to meet today to sign the contract, and that didn't get done over these concerns about mortgages and roll back taxes. The owner says we might have to go for a farm loan and that those will require 20% down. We *could* scrape together that kind of money, but it would be tough, and we were planning on more like 5% down.
I'm going to call our bank and also the tax Appraisal District first thing tomorrow, but this is surprising news to us, to say the least! Anyone ever heard of any of this? I know the VA specifically allows the purchase of a farm, if the owner will live on the premises... And I can't imagine that everyone who buys farmland in TX has 20% to put down!
I mean, this place is GREAT! It's a working, diversified organic farm. The house is fabulous, the land is lovely, it's a great size for us, and it is PRODUCTIVE. It's amazing what they've managed to support on fairly small acreage. My entire family is in love with the place and the owners seem like really great, above-board folks. I'm walkin' on clouds over here.
Here's the downside. They accepted our offer, and we're prequalified for a VA loan. We qualify for well over the agreed upon price, in fact. No problems there. BUT the gentleman who owns the place informed us today that he spoke with some mortgage people and they told him that a Texas Ag Exempt property won't qualify for either a VA or a Conventional Loan-- something about banks wanting to give loans for *just* the property and not bother with the ag exemption. In fact, he's concerned that going the VA or Conventional route would require him and his wife to pay the roll back tax on their place, even though they've been actively farming for several years.
We're going the For Sale By Owner route, and we don't have a real estate agent anymore. (Amazingly, we found this place the same day we fired our realtor.) We'll involved an attorney a bit further down the road, but we were supposed to meet today to sign the contract, and that didn't get done over these concerns about mortgages and roll back taxes. The owner says we might have to go for a farm loan and that those will require 20% down. We *could* scrape together that kind of money, but it would be tough, and we were planning on more like 5% down.I'm going to call our bank and also the tax Appraisal District first thing tomorrow, but this is surprising news to us, to say the least! Anyone ever heard of any of this? I know the VA specifically allows the purchase of a farm, if the owner will live on the premises... And I can't imagine that everyone who buys farmland in TX has 20% to put down!
misfitmorgan
Herd Master
According to this appraiser website it is for equity loans only unless they are diary production.
https://appraisersforum.com/forums/threads/texas-ag-exemption-affects-loan.200085/
The website has some thing that pops up and says it is broken but you can still read the discussion.
From the info i am finding the ag exempt status has nothing to do with the VA loan in terms of being illegal or causing a problem with them having to pay rollback taxes unless they were illegally using ag exempt. A first mortgage is not an equity loan so the law does not apply for the ag exempt portion of the show.
Talk to @Latestarter he just closed on a place in texas with an ag exemption and a VA loan in October of last year.
https://appraisersforum.com/forums/threads/texas-ag-exemption-affects-loan.200085/
The website has some thing that pops up and says it is broken but you can still read the discussion.
From the info i am finding the ag exempt status has nothing to do with the VA loan in terms of being illegal or causing a problem with them having to pay rollback taxes unless they were illegally using ag exempt. A first mortgage is not an equity loan so the law does not apply for the ag exempt portion of the show.
Talk to @Latestarter he just closed on a place in texas with an ag exemption and a VA loan in October of last year.
greybeard
Herd Master
I'll look at the rest of the questions later, but how long have you been a Texas resident? If you or spouse is a military veteran or on active duty you may also well qualify for Texas VLB loans. They too are 5% down if I remember correctly, but they do have a limit on the amount they will finance. I haven't looked in to them in years, as I have always just paid cash for property.
http://www.glo.texas.gov/vlb/loans/land-loans/index.html
There is some truth to that, as VA prefers just to finance for residences, but afaik, they place no limit on the number of acres a homesite has, and I think the seller has his wires crossed. But, part of the appraised value of course, is the valuation of the ag production. Land, just sitting there has a much lower appraised value than land being used. The VA doesn't concern itself with the ag value, the historically have just preferred to finance on the value of the non-ag, non-timber, non-commercial market value of the land, but that may have changed in recent years.
VA also doesn't do raw land loans, where the buyer waits an indeterminable length of time to build, but plenty of farms in Texas have been bought using VA as long as it has a qualifying residence on it or the buyer shows he intends to build a residence within a reasonable length of time.
Ordinarily, the rollback falls on the person that takes the property OUT of ag production--usually the new owner and it's only for the previous tax year IIRC, but if it is found the seller had not actually been doing ag production (it happens--a LOT) the seller has to pay the rollback and it's for 5 previous years. Change in ownership triggers an automatic re-appraisal of the ag valuation here in my county, usually as soon as the title change hits the county clerk's office and the appraiser sometimes realizes the previous owner was not actually keeping up his end of the bargain for the exemption. (once on ag, the appraisers haven't often gone out and physically checked to see if the landowner is following the guidelines, but they did check my sister's place a couple years ago when the satellite images didn't reveal any cattle on the place--trees hid the ground. They found plenty of cow pies and the well trod paths cattle always follow were unmistakable)
Seller may be concerned because he may not actually have been operating under the county's guidelines for qualifying for his exemption, and a new appraisal may show that--in that case, rollback would be on his dime.
http://www.glo.texas.gov/vlb/loans/land-loans/index.html
There is some truth to that, as VA prefers just to finance for residences, but afaik, they place no limit on the number of acres a homesite has, and I think the seller has his wires crossed. But, part of the appraised value of course, is the valuation of the ag production. Land, just sitting there has a much lower appraised value than land being used. The VA doesn't concern itself with the ag value, the historically have just preferred to finance on the value of the non-ag, non-timber, non-commercial market value of the land, but that may have changed in recent years.
VA also doesn't do raw land loans, where the buyer waits an indeterminable length of time to build, but plenty of farms in Texas have been bought using VA as long as it has a qualifying residence on it or the buyer shows he intends to build a residence within a reasonable length of time.
Ordinarily, the rollback falls on the person that takes the property OUT of ag production--usually the new owner and it's only for the previous tax year IIRC, but if it is found the seller had not actually been doing ag production (it happens--a LOT) the seller has to pay the rollback and it's for 5 previous years. Change in ownership triggers an automatic re-appraisal of the ag valuation here in my county, usually as soon as the title change hits the county clerk's office and the appraiser sometimes realizes the previous owner was not actually keeping up his end of the bargain for the exemption. (once on ag, the appraisers haven't often gone out and physically checked to see if the landowner is following the guidelines, but they did check my sister's place a couple years ago when the satellite images didn't reveal any cattle on the place--trees hid the ground. They found plenty of cow pies and the well trod paths cattle always follow were unmistakable)
Seller may be concerned because he may not actually have been operating under the county's guidelines for qualifying for his exemption, and a new appraisal may show that--in that case, rollback would be on his dime.
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