How to move forward with training

[BlessedWithGoats]

Hello! I have an almost 2 year old Great Pyrenees/Anatolian Shepherd mix that I am hoping you can give me advice on.
First I must say, I've made a mistake by not getting him in with the stock asap. But I have faith in him, that he can be trustworthy with the goats in the future, my question is how to get him there... one of our members had an LGD that hated chickens, and now she is a loyal guardian... I believe 'Padre can be this way too!
The other morning, I went out to milk the goats, and I had left Compadre in with one of my does, Cookie, overnight. (I've had him in with them on and off, at various times, supervised and unsupervised.) Both of them seemed calm, which I thought was good on his part! He wasn't in a playful mood, so no chasing goats, etc. I went to tie up Cookie's daughter while I was milking (she was outside the pen), and Compadre came over near us. Cookie must have felt threatened by 'Padre being near her baby, as she came and head-butted 'Padre. He then turned and attacked her. She got one scrape on her side, which I cleaned with Iodine; I think this was from his claw. Other than that, her fur just looked wet. How can I get 'Padre to resist the urge to fight back when one of the goats head-butts him? I know it hurts, as I've been butted before too, but this is so dangerous for the goats! What can I do?
@Southern by choice and @Beekissed, I appreciate reading your posts on how you train your dogs, and Southern, on how LGD's are different from other dogs. So thank you for that!
Thanks in advance!
BWG

 

[Hens and Roos]

Sorry to hear that you had this happen....I have no idea, hopefully others will!

 

[Southern by choice]

I will be honest here... dogs not raised with livestock can and often do often go into livestock homes and are great mostly because they need a job. On the other side dogs that have had livestock around but were interfered with in the process of acclimating are much more difficult.

First- how much time has he been with the goats? Has he been with them then something he did caused you to bring him out away from the goats?
What did you do when he attacked your goat?
What did the goat do?
Where does he live?

 

[secuono]

They should fight back from a violent goat. As long as they don't keep at it, there's no issue. Goat needs to learn to not attack the dog, too easy for them to break dog ribs, legs or even kill them if they hit the dog's skull.

 

[Southern by choice]

They should fight back from a violent goat. As long as they don't keep at it, there's no issue. Goat needs to learn to not attack the dog, too easy for them to break dog ribs, legs or even kill them if they hit the dog's skull.

"Fight back" has many variants.
If a dog is being aggressively charged by a goat then the dog should do one of the following.
-move away from the goat
-after "aggressive" hit MAY let out a growl, snarl or a sharp snap
NEVER should the dog put its mouth on the livestock in a manner that is an attack.
LGD's do NOT fight back by attacking they do what is appropriate in setting boundaries.

I do agree with secouno in the sense that dogs should set boundaries. We have several goats that can be real stupid and 2 dogs will never give a snarl. They do move away which is good but some of the goats chase the dogs . I tell the dogs you can let out a snarl. They won't.

LGD's learn their jobs by submitting to livestock. This starts as young pups. The doe in the posters thread was protecting her kid. This is a dog that has not grown up or been utilized as a LGD so that establishment of trust between goat and dog is not there yet. It is appropriate for a goat to butt a dog to protect its offspring especially since this dog isn't "it's" dog.

Don't know all the details but the dog should have been abruptly corrected. The dog has not learned submission. Dogs that do not learn submission to their charges should not be trusted with livestock.

Working with your dog will mean you must think and treat him like a mature LGD would treat him. If he were here and being retrained... ALL of my LGD's including the 9 month old pups would be on him in a second and he would be down with teeth on his neck. You do not have teeth like a dog and LOL I sure wouldn't want to see you try to do what a dog would do (picture that) but the principle is there. It would be a quick to the ground movement and hold by the neck with you "all up in his face".

If you try again- keep a lead on him and any indication of him trying to do anything to the goat yank that lead back til you knock him off his balance and scold him.

Ruby (Nubian) came from a farm that had lots of dogs and their pyr was certainly no LGD.. she was wild. Ruby was terrified of the LGD's when she came to our farm. She also came at a time we had 5month old pups with our adults... 30 days in quarantine where she was right on the fenceline the dogs would lay up against it. When she was finally turned out to the field she was scared- She would butt the dogs if they got too close. They would just move away- which was appropriate- it didn't take long and Ruby was in love with them. Now Ruby spends all her time with the dogs she now thinks she is one.

If the dogs would have attacked her because she was butting them then there would never be trust. Allowing bad behaviors from a LGD will escalate.

Remember you have the dogs FOR the livestock.

 

[BlessedWithGoats]

Sorry to hear that you had this happen....I have no idea, hopefully others will!

Thank you Hens and Roos!

 

[BlessedWithGoats]

I will be honest here... dogs not raised with livestock can and often do often go into livestock homes and are great mostly because they need a job. On the other side dogs that have had livestock around but were interfered with in the process of acclimating are much more difficult.

First- how much time has he been with the goats? Has he been with them then something he did caused you to bring him out away from the goats?
What did you do when he attacked your goat?
What did the goat do?
Where does he live?

Hi Southern,
He has been with the goats a few times; usually only for a couple of minutes or more while I can watch him. I did have him in with another doe, Basil, before, until he started chasing her. Then he's been with Basil again more recently, but I've found her outside of her pen in the morning, so I don't know if he was still chasing her? (She's scared of dogs though, so he may not have.) I've practiced mostly with him being with Cookie, so I tried the two of them together.
When Compadre attacked the goat, I climbed over the fence and took him off of her. I scolded him (I don't remember if I downed him though), and then ignored him for a while, as a "punishment". I got that idea because I've read where it's not the same for each dog, and sometimes the corrections themselves didn't work. (One member took the dog away from him flock, and that fixed the problem; with Compadre, I thought maybe removing my attention from him might help.)
Cookie, after I got 'Padre off of her, just stood there I think; I eventually took her outside of the pen until I was ready to milk her.
Compadre has been living in a doghouse/kennel with animals in various places around him, and then lately I've had him in the smaller girl goat pen at night. During the day he's been tied out near the goat pens, but he cannot reach the pen.

Thank you secuono for your input as well!

 

[Southern by choice]

but I've found her outside of her pen in the morning, so I don't know if he was still chasing her? (She's scared of dogs though, so he may not have.)

Pretty good indicator

I've read where it's not the same for each dog, and sometimes the corrections themselves didn't work. (One member took the dog away from him flock, and that fixed the problem; with Compadre, I thought maybe removing my attention from him might help.)

Yes, but you ,ust understand the foundation work was already done and the dog was raised IN with the livestock. Correcting puppy issues. Very different application here. He hasn't been raised with the livestock- there is no bond and therefore there is no lesson being learned. He wouldn't care if he wasn't in with them. Dogs that have been raised with LGD's do hate being separated. It is a method used after the initial training and correction.

I've had him in the smaller girl goat pen at night.

Then the girls should be locked up so he cannot chase and make them nervous. He is not trustworthy yet and every action that is not appropriate needs to be corrected. Keeping him in the field but separate from the goats where they can lay up by the fence etc is better. It is a great first step.

How much time does he spend in his kennel? Too much confinement could also be contributing to the issues. If bored and needing to get his energy out then he may just see the goats as something he wants to play with.
If possible move his Kennel right up against the goats fence.
Small goats are not the best to "correct" an untrained dog... but it's what ya got.
Big more powerful no nonsense goats are great for teaching a large powerful dog.

 

[BlessedWithGoats]

Then the girls should be locked up so he cannot chase and make them nervous. He is not trustworthy yet and every action that is not appropriate needs to be corrected. Keeping him in the field but separate from the goats where they can lay up by the fence etc is better. It is a great first step.

Okay! Thank you! I think I can make it so that they are separated by a cattle panel; separated, yet still right next to each other!

How much time does he spend in his kennel? Too much confinement could also be contributing to the issues. If bored and needing to get his energy out then he may just see the goats as something he wants to play with.

He has often only been spending the night in his kennel; usually during the day he is out on his run, where he can run if he wants to, and he can often see the goats (unless I have them grazing where he cannot see them).

Small goats are not the best to "correct" an untrained dog... but it's what ya got.

The biggest goat that I have is either Basil or Ashton; probably Ashton. He is an Alpine/Oberhasli mix... would it be best to train him with a goat that is scared of him, or one that will try to head-butt him occasionally? And boy or girl goat, would that make a difference? I'd prefer not to use the boys if possible, since that is way too close to my milking station... The other two does that I could use are Alpine/Saanen and Alpine/Saanen/Nubian... both are medium sized, but would be more likely to correct him than Basil would.

So when I get him right next to the goats, should I additionally work on having him in with one or two of them, but only when I'm watching him? Or is just having him near them what I need to do for now?

 

[secuono]

How is a goat supposed to know that a growl or snap is a warning if it never experienced the next stages of it? Goats don't speak dog, they learn it over time.
It's like assuming someone knows that a dog may bite based on posture alone. Which we all know, most people have zero idea on body language of dogs, some even ignore growls and teeth showing! =0

If a dog needs to touch with his teeth to get the point across, then so be it. They should not, though, keep at it, chew, draw blood, chase down and otherwise continue their correction of the goat.

I've had sheep that ignored my adult's posturing, growling and then snapping. So dog went to the next step of a well placed bite. Worked like a charm, they all started to better pay attention to the dog's warnings.
The same dog lets lambs jump on her, rub their heads on her, adults pawing her to move out of their way, allows lambs to sniff her food, etc.
Dog knows when she needs to use more force or no force or simply step between lambs being too rough with each other.

If your dog doesn't go through the steps and always goes right for serious aggression and beyond, then it should be corrected to let the dog know it went too far and to take it down a notch or two.

Most of an LGDs knowledge and actions is from instincts, but not all of it. Most need some assistance or guidance at some point.