If the eyelids are white looking, does that mean they need wormed???

[Speedy94c]

Ive checked alot of my goats lately and most are a white looking inside the eyelid, some are pink up to red looking but most are white. I did worm 60 days or so ago, ivermectin inj oraly 3x recomended dose for the weight, then 30 days ago safeguard paste 3 times the recamended weight.
Should I do it again? How often does everyone worm your goats?

Do I need to worm certain ones until the inner eyelids turn pink? How long does it take them to turn after a good worming.

Most of my goats are adults about 40 of them and about 20 young 3-6 month olds. They are on about 10 acres with plenty of fresh water and I feen 16% goat feed twice a day.

Thanks STeve

 

[ksalvagno]

I would have fecals done before I would do any more worming. Usually you wait 2 weeks from the last dose of dewormer before you have a fecal done. Have a few fecals done on the ones with the white eyelids. Also make sure the vet checks for coccidia too.

You could always give the ones with the white eyelids some Red Cell too.

 

[cmjust0]

Yes, the ones with white eyelids need to be dewormed. Ivomec is OK -- but just OK, usually -- and dosing them @ 3x the label is a little light.. I've been using it @ 1ml/25lbs of goat, given as a drench (orally).

If I were you, I'd repeat what you did 60 days ago (which was mid-May, before barberpole season was really in full-swing) and then go back in about 2wks and re-treat with something stronger like Cydectin...or even Levasole, if you can find it.

(Bear in mind, though, that killing too many worms at once in a severely anemic goat can actually kill the goat... Do your homework. I'm just saying what *I'd* do, but you should be aware that I'm just an ignorant hillbilly who don't know no better. )

But, yes...if they're white, they're anemic. Badly anemic. And when they're anemic, that means barberpoles are making eggs.. And when barberpoles are cranking out eggs, the infested goat is shedding HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of barberpole eggs per day.

Which, of course, means you're gonna have to stay way up on top of this through the Fall, because your pastures are probably extremely contaminated at this point.

As for frequency of deworming...most of us deworm as-needed. Right now, for me personally, that's gonna end up being pretty dang frequently on some of my goats.

 

[glenolam]

...and then go back in about 2wks and re-treat with something stronger like Cydectin...or even Levasole, if you can find it.

Like this cydectin ?

Or one of these ?

 

[cmjust0]

...and then go back in about 2wks and re-treat with something stronger like Cydectin...or even Levasole, if you can find it.

Like this cydectin ?

Or one of these ?

Any of the three can be used on goats..

The pour-on is used as a drench. It's 5mg/ml, and a 500ml bottle is about $60. Works out to $0.024/mg. I've drenched with it before, didn't like doing it, and won't recommend it to others. Stuff contains a chemical called "aromatic 100," which is an industrial solvent. It's used in paint thinner, varnish, jet fuel, stuff like that.. To me, that's not a good thing to put down a goat's throat.

The dosage breakdown on it, though is about 1ml/25lbs...so at least we can work off that to figure other drenching dosages.. About 1mg/5lbs of goat.

Now, compare the pour-on to the Cydectin sheep drench...it's 1mg/ml. To achieve the same dosage level as the pour-on, you'd have to give 1ml/5lbs -- twice the sheep dosage. A 1000ml bottle costs about $65 -- $0.065/mg. Not a bargain, obviously, considering a 150lb goat would need **30ml**..

But, it's safer going down the gullet.

Then there's the injectable.. It's about $80/200ml, and it's 10mg/ml. Works out to $0.04/mg -- right between the pour-on and the drench. It's twice as strong as the pour-on, and ten-times as strong as the drench on a mg/ml basis. The recommendation in this area -- at this point in time, anyway -- is administering is SQ at the label dosage of 1ml/110lbs.. Believe it or not, it works...takes FOREVER, but it works.

Frankly, I don't think I like using it that way.

I think I may actually switch to using it orally.. The advice that's being given now, as far as I can tell, is based on a conclusion reached by the southern consortium for small ruminant parasite control (SCSRPC).. The SCSRPC had previously stated a belief that parasite resistance would develop more slowly if the drug were injected because "moxidectin has a superior pharmacokinetic profile in goats when administered by subcutaneous injection as compared to when administered orally. This means that a much greater proportion of the drug administered remains in the body at high therapeutic levels, but is no more persistent over time."

To me, that made no sense whatsoever.. What they're essentially saying there is that when injected SQ, the blood levels go way up....and then crash. I don't buy it. And that's not what I've seen in terms of the slooooooow results.

My suspicion has always been that it would remain in the body for a longer period of time when given SQ.. My thinking is that as it's filtered out of the system, the levels are constantly falling...which would mean they're running around on "low-dose" Cydectin for a period of time, and we ALL know that's bad news.. Low doses of anthelmintic are a really, really good way of building resistance.

Hell, Fort Dodge is apparently even developing a sheep injectable called 'Cydectin LA' which is a slow-release formulation dosed at **5 TIMES** the current injectable dose. The whole idea behind it is to slow down resistant parasite selection by keeping the blood levels high for a longer period of time...which, to me, indicates that FORT FRICKEN DODGE is thinking exactly what I'm thinking...

Still...I went with the experts' recommendation from SCSRRRSPISCSP or whatever, because, ya know, they're the smartest people in the room..

Right?

Right??!?

Well.. :/

A little linkless, explanationless blurb on their homepage now reads:

Due to recent developments, the SCSRPC is revisiting the use of injectable Cydectin in goats and, until further notice, the oral route of administration (sheep drench) is preferred.

Having said that...ya...think I'm gonna refer to my gut and actually DRENCH the injectable from now on, and probably at a dose equivalent to 1mg/5lbs bodyweight. So, 1ml/50lbs.

Still, not too bad...a 3ml drench for an adult. Cheaper than the drench, safer than the pour-on.

That's just me, though. And, as y'all have probably heard by now, I'm just an ignorant hillbilly who don't know no better.

 

[Speedy94c]

OK IM CONFUSED.

THINKING BACK, AFTER I WORMED WITH THE SAFEGUARD, I DID LOOSE SOME OF MY GOATS. THEY DIDNT APPEAR SICK ITS LIKE THEY WOULD JUST LAY DOWN AND DIE. I AM THINKING NOW I KILLED THEM BY WORMING THEM.

HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT WORMING AND NOT KILLING THE GOAT IF THEY ARE LOADED WITH BARBERPOLE WORMS?

I SURE DONT WANT TO LOOSE ANYMORE OF MY GOATS.
ONE OF THE ONES I LOST WAS BY BEST FRIEND, SHE WOULD FOLLOW ME EVERYWHERE.

WHAT TO DO?????

 

[cmjust0]

OK IM CONFUSED.

THINKING BACK, AFTER I WORMED WITH THE SAFEGUARD, I DID LOOSE SOME OF MY GOATS. THEY DIDNT APPEAR SICK ITS LIKE THEY WOULD JUST LAY DOWN AND DIE. I AM THINKING NOW I KILLED THEM BY WORMING THEM.

Not likely to have been the case using Safe-Guard...it's pretty harmless stuff.

Even to worms. :/

HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT WORMING AND NOT KILLING THE GOAT IF THEY ARE LOADED WITH BARBERPOLE WORMS?

I SURE DONT WANT TO LOOSE ANYMORE OF MY GOATS.
ONE OF THE ONES I LOST WAS BY BEST FRIEND, SHE WOULD FOLLOW ME EVERYWHERE.

WHAT TO DO?????

Well...I had a kid who was whited out pretty good just the other day. He got an injection of Cydectin (which is *supposed* to be fast, but apparently isn't) along with three days of Safe-Guard (very mild) followed immediately by a drench with 2mls of Ivomec.

In the meantime, I was also treating with Red Cell...it's a product designed to help with anemia in horses, but seems to be very helpful in treating goats, too.

So far, he's getting better by the day.

Soooo...that's what I did.

Bear in mind also that had I realized he was whited out before I injected the Cydectin, I may not have done it.. Luckily, it didn't seem to work quite like it's said to work.

(yay? :/ )

So, take all that for what it's worth.. If you want to apply it to your herd, be my guest -- but I'm going to stay juuuuuust on this side of the fence from actually suggesting it to you. Reason being, I don't wanna be responsible for the outcome -- I get enough of that with my own herd.

See, what you have to understand is that when they get to the point of being WHITE in the eyelids, you're in fatal worm burden territory...for some, a shot of Cydectin plus three days of Safe Guard at 3x the label dose, followed by a drench of Ivomec, all accompanied by a week's worth of Red Cell may be too much, too fast, whereas for others it may be too little, too late.

Which is to say, you're at a point where you may very well have losses here either way you go.

 

[ksalvagno]

I would still have a fecal done first. I know most people here say that adults probably don't have coccidia but I can say from experience that adults can have a large enough load of coccidia to affect them. Find out what parasites they have first and then treat appropriately. If you are worming them for barberpole worms and they have coccidia, then you are doing nothing for them. I'm not saying your problem is coccidia. What I'm trying to say is find out what parasites you are actually dealing with.

 

[Speedy94c]

SOUNDS LIKE THERE IS NOT AN EASY ANSWER OR FOR SURE THING TO DO.

THANKS FOR ALL YOUR REPLYS.

STEVE

 

[cmjust0]

I would still have a fecal done first.

I wouldn't.

I know most people here say that adults probably don't have coccidia but I can say from experience that adults can have a large enough load of coccidia to affect them. Find out what parasites they have first and then treat appropriately. If you are worming them for barberpole worms and they have coccidia, then you are doing nothing for them. I'm not saying your problem is coccidia. What I'm trying to say is find out what parasites you are actually dealing with.

Occam's razor; when you hear the beating of hooves, it's probably horses -- not zebras.

1) It's mid/late July.
2) He's got 60 head on 10 acres..
3) They haven't had any meaningful deworming for 60 days.
4) A few are pink or red, but most are whited out.
5) Study after study that I've read finds that, upon the necropsy of worm-burdened goats, barberpoles routinely accounts for about 80% of the total burden.

This is barberpole.

They probably have other kinds of worms, too...who cares. Kill the barberpoles, you'll kill them too. That's not just me saying that, either; that's studies that basically ignore all other worms on account of them being well controlled as a consequence of trying to control barberpoles..

The time's right. The conditions are right. The symptoms are right.

Screw the fecal -- TREAT FOR BARBERPOLE.

ETA: If you're now worried that some of this might be coccidiosis, that's fine. If your feed isn't medicated, treat the kids for coccidia with some kind of sulfa drench. DiMethox is good. I like the 40% injectable, but the gallon jugs are probably cheaper for that many head in the long run. Dosage is about 25mg of dimethox per pound of goat, 1x/day for 5 days. Repeat treatment in about 3wks. Gallon jugs are 125mg/ml and the 40% injectable is 400mg/ml...you can do the rest of the math easily enough.

If your grain is medicated...which it probably is...I doubt any of this has anything to do with coccidiosis, save perhaps for the errant kid or two who get it despite being on medicated feed. It happens.

So, there ya go...

But seriously...TREAT NOW for barberpole.