LGD behaviour with sheep.... is this normal

[Sheepdog]

I posted a thread about the male anatolian that we just got regarding him not settling in and not eating....

Well we have the food thing figured out, he just needed to go hungry for a night and he soon decided he liked his food.

He still wants to be out with me and not so much in with the sheep, he is just over 12 months and was raised with goats and sheep, but on a small 5 or 10 acre block and was housed with the goats and sheep close to the previous owners house. We have only had him a few days, so he is still settling in.

He has company of another dog... I have a huge barn which is divided in two with cattle mesh fence. The pyrenees puppy is in with three quiet ewe lambs in one side and the anatolian is in with an adult dorper ram and 4 adult ewes.

So he ate his dinner this morning whilst I stood there with him, when the sheep came up to him, he growled and lunged at them, but didn't bite them. If he didn't do this, they would eat his food. Not sure if this is acceptable behaviour..... idealy he probably should be fed separated but how can you do this... I don't know of any possible way ...... unless I go with the magnetic door thing in a separate enclosure..... see my original post about that... but it would be expensive and a lot of messing around to do this.

So is it normal for a LGD to protect their food like that???

Also, I watched the ram yesterday trying his luck... he is a very quiet ram, but being about 16 months of age, he is at the age where he is being a boy and trying to assert his dominance. The anatolian was laying in his usual place and the cheeky ram walked over to the dog and looked at him... Zeuss the dog ignored him. Ram gets a bit closer, Zeuss still ignores him. Ram stomps his foot, Zeuss ignores him. Ram playfully butts Zeuss, Zeuss ignores him, ram stomps on Zeuss, Zeuss growls and lunges at Ram and snaps at him. Ram runs off just a few feet, Zeuss doesn't chase him, just lies right back down in his spot.

I haven't had much to do with LGDs and obviously the dog had to protect himself somehow or the Ram would be jumping all over him. I am assuming that this dog is okay because he got the Ram to quit and then it was over, he didn't chase or appear to be particularly aggressive about the whole incident.

Also, how long should we give him to settle in. He wants to follow me and isn't that interested in staying with the sheep... he doesn't whine or howl, but when he sees me, he wants out and he was trying to push past me when I opened the gate into the pen until I reprimanded him for that.... he has pushed past me a couple of times and gets into the second pen where the pyrenees puppy is and he doesn't show any interest in the puppy, he just wants to mark his territory and pee on everything... could that be because he is in a barn and is used to being out in a small pasture? We will be moving him outside soon, but I just wanted to make sure he bonded with the sheep and knew where home was.... he is such a big dog, he could jump out of the fences in the pasture... they keep the sheep in, but if he really wanted out, he could jump or climb over.... Same is to be said in the barn, it is open at the front and he could jump out if he really wanted too... but I put him in the barn just to get him settled in. Maybe I should put him out with the rest of the sheep in the pasture????

Any advice please, much appreciated. Also, should I have him neutered, I am not wanting to breed at all... but I also don't want to spend the money on neutering him if he isn't going to be a good worker.

 

[carolinagirl]

I don't have a load of experience with LGDs yet because my pups are still young, but from what I have read it sounds to me like he is going to be a very good LGD. He is protecting his food, which is fine and normal. He is also protecting himself, but only using the force necessary to make the ram not hurt him. I think he will be a very good dog. I'd get him neutered, but not yet. These dogs don't mature for quite a while and it's usually better to wait until he is 2 before neutering. If you need to neuter him to avoid an unwanted pregnancy then do what you need to do, but delay it if possible.

Also, Anatolians tend to guard differently than Great Pyrenees do. They may not stick close to the herd, but will watch them from a distance. I don't think I'd be overly concerned if he isn't interested in sticking right with the goats, as long as he does stay in the area. If you don't currently have an electric fence you may need one. Fence jumping is common with Anatolians and GPs. They often want to patrol a larger area than the fence electric wire keeps them in. I have a strand on top and another one around 15" from the ground (to prevent digging out).

 

[Beekissed]

So is it normal for a LGD to protect their food like that???

I think that's pretty normal for any dog. As long as he just lunges and snaps, it is just a warning...I've always let my dogs do that towards the sheep when the sheep try to steal their food. If they had taken it any further than that, I'd have been more concerned. How else can they keep the darn sheep from eating their food? My sheep were downright piggy when it came to trying to steal the dog's food~darn brats!!!

I agree with Carolina, this pup sounds like he'll be a good LGD in time.

 

[Sheepdog]

Thanks guys for the advice... I assumed it was normal for him to want to protect his food and himself and I was impressed that he just lunged and didn't continue to chase... it does worry me a little that the ram may bet his face bitten in the process because he is very determined and a little too quiet for my liking... I actually love this ram because he is so easy to do anything with as far as catching, worming etc, but to try and move him from one pasture to another, he is a pain in the butt LOL....nothing that a feed bucket doesn't fix, but if I work the dogs, I move him out of the flock... makes it easier on the dogs.... as the rest of the sheep will instinctively herd and flock together. He would have made a good show lamb with his temperament.

We do have a good electic fence unit that I have used in the past for the horses... so I will put it up as well.

And thankyou for the advice about the way they guard the livestock, how a Pyr is different... I had never actually thought of it like that and yes, this Anatolian seems to want to just sit in his spot and watch the sheep, whereas the Pyr pup wants to be snuggled up with the sheep and have more contact.... I guess that is the difference between the two breeds and why most Anatolians that I have seen don't seem to be as soft as natured as the Pyr.

One more question...lol... probably won't be my last question so it probably isn't just one more LOL.... but would you guys let the Pyr puppy run with the Anatolian out in the pasture once I get it electric fenced? I am really wanting to get them out of the barn and into the pasture and it is so green and lush at the moment... rye grass and clover so thick that I just cringe to have them locked up. The other sheep are in the house trap right by the house at the moment, as I am not game to put them out in the big pastures due to coyotes. So should I just put the Anatolian out with the sheep in the pasture and keep the pyr with the quiet lambs for a while longer or put them both out together. I am leaning more towards keeping the pyr in until she is older.

I think it would be good to have a pyr that is with the sheep and sleeping with the lambs etc and an Anatolian that is guarding the boundaries etc.... At the moment the pyr pup just loves being with the sheep and is really bonding to them even though she is so young,..... she loves to see me and comes up for a pat every morning and evening when I feed the sheep and the dogs, then she runs straight back to her sheep, she isn't interested in wanting to be with me as much as the Anatolian is... but I think with him, it is the fact that he is confined to the barn and needs a bigger area.... it seems like he is really bored.... seems like he is a very active dog and a little stressed if he cannot get out and run. He was running with Barbado before I got him and apparently he would run around and play when they played... guess being locked in a barn, albeit a big barn... 60ft X 100ft ...... and now he is with boring dorpers LOL, they just aren't much fun

I was considering getting another anatolian pup in about a months time, too.... so I will have another young puppy. What is the best way to go with these pups... run them with the older dog, who is still such a big puppy and very immature, or run them separate?

It would make more sense to buy adult LGDs and I have located some, but it worries me they are very good at their job but have had very little contact with people.... even picking them up could be a problem because they cannot catch them very easily...... I really don't want a dog that is so independent and bonded to the flock that I cannot at least be able to give it a heartworm prevention every month, trim its nails when needed and de worm every three months. That just doesn't seem like it is worth it too me. And if you ever have to catch the dog to doctor it if it is injured.... well that could be a task too. And not to mention that a dog that is difficult to catch could very well bite in an attempt to get away in the process of being caught... so I have stuck to the pups but I did take a gamble with this 12 month old Anatolian.

Whats your opinions on how I should go about this?

 

[Susyr22]

My Male Pyrenees does the same thing. He is gentle otherwise but when it comes to his food he becomes aggressive. He is just showing who is boss. He also gets agressive when the momma sheep try to protect their babies and My male will run after then when they stomp their feet at him. My female Pyrenees is super gentle and will only become aggressive when feeding time. I think its a intact male thing.
I have to take Sam out during lambing season as he gets really mad at the mothers being so protective, He loves the babies though and is super gentle, Just don't get mad at him LOL

 

[Sheepdog]

Well I was almost at my wits end with this dog, he started to bark and whine and paced the fence continually trying to get out, even with electric wire, he gets out, (we have very sandly soil... so digging halfway to China is possible....) and he digs under the electric fence, way under and creates a hole so bit that the sheep can almost get out... the younger lambs can.... We have 300 acres here and I was worried that Zeuss would run away, but he hasn't.

But when he gets out, he doesn't go anywhere, except the immediate area around the sheep pastures.... So far at least. He stops at the neighbours boundary and marks his territory all along the fence line.... he guards our house and yard and the smaller horse traps, but not the big 80 acre pasture where some of the horses are turned out. He seems to guard, specifically where we are... if we go out to the other end of the ranch, we take the truck and go around on the dirt road, and chain him up in the sheep pasture whilst we are gone. So he doesn't seem to want to go anywhere that we have not been or where there are no horses or sheep. He sticks close to the barn where I have the Pyrenees and some young ewes and also the pastures where the other sheep are grazing. It seemed he needed a bigger place to guard, he was nothing but miserable locked in the pasture, even though it is quite large.

He has settled in and is eating much better now that he has free range of the place. If I there isn't going to be anyone home, currently I put him on the chain in the pasture where the sheep are (he also has a small barn there for shelter)... but considering we only have one neighbour and we are out in the country, I am fairly confident that he will not go anywhere even if we are not home. He doesn't hang around the house at all either, he just checks it out, does a periodic patrol, comes and says hi and then he is back off to patrol the rest of his area and check on things. Early in the mornings he is usually laying down, but alert, and watching, in between the sheep in the barn and the sheep in the pasture.

Not sure if this is common behaviour for the Anatolians but it seems to be working out fine. It is also not the ideal way to keep a livestock guardian, I am sure but it is the only way that he is happy and the only solution to him digging, climbing, chewing his way out..... and I think originally he was allowed a bigger area, then the owner before me had him on a small 5 or 10 acre block and he didn't do well at all, though he never did run away but he patroled half of the neighborhood. He is only just over 12 months and still a big playful puppy, so hoping he will keep up his current behavior and hopefully we will be able to leave him to roam free and guard the place without any problems.

 

[TexasShepherdess]

I will echo, his behavior (regarding the annoying ram and his food) is normal. My great pyr, Angel, does the same thing..I have one ewe who LOVES dog food..she will hang back far enough away though, because Angel will snap at her if she tries to come up and butt her way into her food.

 

[Sheepdog]

I will echo, his behavior (regarding the annoying ram and his food) is normal. My great pyr, Angel, does the same thing..I have one ewe who LOVES dog food..she will hang back far enough away though, because Angel will snap at her if she tries to come up and butt her way into her food.

Since Zeus has been running free he is still protective of his food, but not as bad. A few days after I posted my original post, he was getting protective of everything, the water, the sheeps mineral block... he wouldn't let the sheep near their own grain that they get once a day, wouldn't let them drink... he was going a little extreme.... it was almost like he was getting quite extreme and quite aggitated, as if he was going stir crazy from being confined to the one area.... once he dug his way out, again and again (and there is wire buried about a foot down, but he just digs straight under that) ... anyway, once he dug his way out, and kept getting out, he was so much happier.... much better now with everything...

I guess he was just kinda claustrophobic in a smaller 5 acre pasture and needs more room to move. I still feed him every night with the sheep, in the barn which is in the pasture... but he doesn't want to stay in the pasture, he goes in an out as he pleases and guards from a distance. I removed all of the electric fence so that he can jump into the pasture if he has to if there is ever a threat to his sheep. I think he was just bored being locked up. He still guards his dog food, but is happy to let the sheep eat and drink their food and water without there being an issue.