MINERAL MYSTERY'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Old Ram-Australia]

G'day and welcome to this topic,we have noted with 'interest'the many reference's to the use of minerals for 'all' classes of livestock in various parts of the forums........................

There was a time 'long ago'(before 1900 and possibility up to the 1950's)when 'flockmasters' did not have a need to supplement the stock ,these were the days when stock grazed'mountain pastures','woodland meadows','fields of wildflowers' and 'hedgerows' full of all manner of 'weeds and wild herbs'.This type of grazing provided the complete nutritional needs of the stock.

We then took these animals to 'far flung foreign lands',confined them and feed them on 'various' mono-cultures,on land 'artificially fertilized',treated with 'herbicides and cropped 'year in and year out''until the land was exhausted and so the feed became' mineral deficient,over time the stock being 'fed 'this feed also became 'mineral deficient''.

In an effort to redress this problem the stock are now being fed all manner of 'nitrate's and sulphate's'.For those of you who have read of PAT COLBY'S ideas and concepts(I for one are not'totally wedded ' to all of her ideas)they are an interesting way of approaching this problem,it has taken man a long time to get the stock to where they are today and it has taken "us" many years to redress the problems associated with poor soils that' lock up' or make minerals un-available in a form the stock can use.

In 'healthy soils' with adequate levels of organic mater and soil biology and carrying a diverse range of grasses and other plants do have the capacity to supply all your stocks needs.But if,like our soils they have been 'abused' over many years,never rested and continually bombarded with Superfosfate in an effort to get them to produce,whereas instead of improving they have slowly be reduced to areas of 'bare soil' and patches of 'weeds'.

In spite of our district being 'drought declared' for 10 of the last 11 years(the last 12 months has seen us get what used to be referred to 'normal rainfall')we have managed to reverse all this damage by conservative stocking and by feeding the stock a mixture of "Natural Minerals",which they distribute over the land in there manure in a form that plants can 'take up' straight away.

There is no way we can 'prove' what we have done has made the difference(but for those of you who saw the photo's in another post), 'something' is happening and the 'soils and the stock' are responding in a manner which cannot be easily explained.

We feed the mix out in containers (as shown in another post) and because the minerals are naturally occurring are not effected by getting 'wet',although it can reduce the value of the copper to the animals.There is no P in our mix as this is supplied by 'healthy 'grass.It is said that if you have a Thistle problem you get some goats,so why are goats the answer?Thistles are great 'miners' of minerals,there long tap root goes deep into the soil and brings minerals to the surface in there leaves and stems and goats will wait until 'bud-burst' and them 'mow them down to ground-level,so they gain the maxi-min benifiet from the plants mining.

Basicly our mix is Sulphur(Yellow or Flowers of Sulphur),Copper Sulphate(Bluestone),Dolamite(a correct balance of Cal and Mag)Sea-weed meal( this contains "everything")and Salt(we use swimming pool salt ,its cheap and being chunky everything else "clings" to it).We are happy to post the recipe or you can sand us a PM if you prefer.

We believe that all livestock producers have their stocks best interest at heart and will do everything they can to have healthy ,happy and productive stock.


We look forward to ALL opinions,comments and whatever,regards,.............T.O.R.

 

[The Old Ram-Australia]

The last week has been pretty hectic for us,the rain and heat brought us a" fly wave" and over 10% of the flock were "struck".This ment every head of stock had to be yarded and inspected and treated by "shearing " the infected parts of the sheep and using a spray to "deter ' the flies from coming back and to sooth the inflamed skin..........

I must to admit to being in a" state of shock" as to the lack of comments ,"positive or negative", either the concepts put forward were accepted on" face value",or the forum feels that this subject is of "no value" to there operation,or everybody is so busy with lambing/kidding etc they have not had time to consider the ideas put forward.........

I realize that the first post was a bit of a novel, but the subject is a vast one and I believe it is important from both an animal health and an economic one to take time to consider it............

It would help if you could indicate whether the topic has merit or not as it will help us on the subject matter of "future topic's", if the site is only interested in "light and fluffy",we will not try to introduce subjects which involve some considered thinking and looking at your own operation in some depth.....................T.O.R.

 

[freemotion]

Yikes! I almost missed this!!! I was out of state and not by my computer when you posted. I just read every word of your first post and was confused by the second until I went back and saw the date of the first. Believe me, I would've replied had I seen it on Feb 5!

I am VERY interested in your recipe for minerals in full detail, and more details on your methods. I, too, have been working to improve my pasture without the use of chemicals. It is slow going for me, as I have had a lot of unexpected family responsibilities in the past couple of years.

We bought our little property in March of 2002 and worked for the first 2-3 years just clearing thorns and brush. It didn't occur to me at the time to get goats to do this job...then when I rescued two of them, I learned quickly and the hard way that wild azaleas are deadly to goats, particularly fast spring regrowth during clearing attempts. So I hired a bulldozer finish the job, along with other large equipment.

We returned two acres of young forest to pasture, seeded, limed, and hoped for the best. My main "livestock" was a retired show horse and her two goat companions. I allowed the mare to overgraze the field, knowing she had very little time left and was very dear to me. That is why after nine years, I am just getting the land going and productive.

I read some of Joel Salatin's stuff and other natural approaches and have really worked hard at spreading compost (one wheelbarrowful at a time!), and mowing (by hand with a scythe) when the horse died and the field was under-grazed.

Chickens added to the field made a huge improvement. Although they do dig dust wallows that are deep enough to be a hazard to horses, I only have goats now (seven.) The hens concentrated on some of the areas that were so out of control that even the goats couldn't manage to tame them. They also scratch up the matted leaves that fall from the oaks and would otherwise kill large areas of vegetation. They de-thatch matted grasses, too. They've completed obliterated the Japanese beetle infestation we had. We rarely see a tick anymore.

My next project is to cross-fence with field fencing and livestock panels. My goats giggled at the electric-only fencing I used to divide a portion of the field last summer when the drought made the fence weak. My plan is to do at least one section a summer, maybe two, and then use an intense rotational grazing method.

Also on the list of projects is to start cleaning up my wooded area of old wire fencing and other hazards dumped there by previous owners, and to root out the wild azaleas remaining on the property.

I no longer battle the "weeds" in my pasture like I did when I was mostly focused on the horse. In fact, I spend some time gathering seeds from the largest dandelions and scattering them in the field, and encouraging nettles, and comfrey is protected in the garden until I can multiply it enough to plant it along the fenceline and naturalize it where the goats can reach it for a nibble.

That is my "novel" and saga and I am VERY interested in your mineral mix and recipe and any other information you might care to share.

 

[The Old Ram-Australia]

Hi Freemotion,thank you "so" much for your story,yes the Wild Azaleas are a real "danger" to the goats as are any of that family.....What is the total area of your farm?..Roughly what % is pasture ,woodland ,etc.?.........Do you intend to enclose all your "woodland "into one lot?...........What about "stockwater",what type of system do you employ now?..................

When it came to "fence planning",we found that an Aeriel photo with a topographic overlay to be invaluable(You may be able to get something from your Local Land Titles Office,or Google Earth maybe,perhaps someone else can suggest something?).............The main problem we had to get over was the lack of penetration of moisture into the soil when it did rain.........To begin with all of the ridge-tops were fenced off,to protect the timber and any re-growth which could occur(we have planted "no" trees in the paddocks and rely on natural tree regeneration)and have moved to a rotational grazing system to increase plant diversity...........
.All new fencing is across the slope(except where we wish to "split" the band) to produce bands of pasture which has the effect of slowing the water speed down the slope.It is worth your while to go out into the paddocks when its raining and observe the run-off patterns and to put these observations down on a paddock plan.( you will then be able to observe just where the "drainage lines "are)If there is interest I will post an overhead showing fence lines and then maybe edit a photo to show the fences in situ(I have never attempted this before,so I may need a rainy day to achieve it.)

I do hope the explanations are able to be easily understood,if not ,a PM or just ask in a post,regards T.O.R.............

 

[Bossroo]

Hi T.O.R., thistle may be good to "mine" minerals, however... I have 20 acres of pasture for horses and after 5 years blackbirds braught in thausands of bull thistle seeds that sprouted and infested the pastures. So much so that they got to be so tall as over my head in some areas and the mares wouldn't want to go out into those areas of the pasture due to the " thorns". They got away from me because I had to have knee surgery and was laid up for 8 weeks. I then had a mouse infestation that you wouldn't believe. Took 3 years of spraying to get rid of the thistles and mice. As for star thistle... the only good one is a dead one! When a horse starts to eat the star thistle, they develope a taste for it, there is a chemical in the star thistle that destroys an area of the brain( cumilative) the size of a pencil erraser which paralizes the lower jaw and the horse starves to death. There is NO cure. Fiddleneck, lupen,etc. are another very nasty weeds that causes abortions in a whole list of animals. Oleander bush is a deadly killer. Just 3 leaves will kill a human child, 5-7 leaves will kill a mature sheep or goat, just a few more will kill a horse. Stinging nettle inflames the lips and gums causing all kinds of pain, therefore they then refuse to graize and go downhill fast. There are many more. So I kill, maime and destroy them on sight. Much better to use deep rooted plants such as oats, alfalfa, clover, etc. to "mine" the minerals. I feed my mares about a pound +/- of grain per day each . I mix in about a teaspoon full of minerals + selenium+ vitamin mix , and add a tablespoon of diatomacous earth ( for parasite control first inside the animals, then when it passes through the animals, for fly maggot control when in manure ( I also use fly predator wasps) very effective for fly control, then when the manure breaks down, added calcium to the soil). I also have 1 mineral block and 1 salt block for 11 mares that has been out for about 9 years that has been barely touched.

 

[freemotion]

Having been a horse professional for many years, I can say that pasture management for horses and for other livestock is very different. Well, somewhat different.

With intensive rotational grazing, you can run goats through small paddocks to keep certain weeds down. Then run the horses through. There is always a need to patrol the pastures and get rid of certain plants. I patrol for yew (I am in the suburbs and the birds bring yew into my field) and the azaleas and moutain laurels that grow wild here.

With the multi-species approach, however, the noxious weeds can be spot-cleared quite easily if they get out of control. If they do get out of control, yes, I do understand the need to use stronger measures at first, hence the hiring of the bulldozer and large equipment here. I'd have done things a bit differently with the knowledge I have now, but hey, that is life, huh?

 

[freemotion]

Hi Freemotion,thank you "so" much for your story,yes the Wild Azaleas are a real "danger" to the goats as are any of that family.....What is the total area of your farm?..Roughly what % is pasture ,woodland ,etc.?.........Do you intend to enclose all your "woodland "into one lot?...........What about "stockwater",what type of system do you employ now?..................

We are right smack in a suburban neighborhood with a row of houses with 75' wide lots. Ours is 243' long, but then we have a triangle of pasture/swamp/woods behind three of the houses and jutting into a christmas tree farm. That is probably the only reason we are zoned for animals!

The property was extremely neglected when we purchased it and we have put a lot of sweat equity into it. We have around 4 acres, but one long side of the triangle is a seasonal swamp with what was once likely a seasonal stream. Someone in the past allowed illegal dumping of waste from a metal shop, so a chunk of the land is unusable, and that is why the stream became a swamp. It would cost a small fortune to return it to its original state, and this is not something I can do with a shovel by hand, so I consider myself to be an owner of about 2.5 acres with a bit of woods that I could use one day if I choose to fence it. I may one day fence it for pigs to help root out the azaleas. The swampy side will make this challenging and I am not really motivated at this time to take on this project. I still have lots to do to improve my pasture.

The size of the property also limits the number of animals....It was pretty rough in this past drought year with 6 goats (the buck was penned so he didn't impact the pasture), about 30 chickens, a couple of turkeys, and two pigs. I bought a lot of hay to get through the summer and fall, and the previous year I didn't need purchased hay until late December, as I'd dried and stored what I'd scythed.

As for water, I haul buckets from the house all winter and run a hose in the summer! It takes about 2 five gallon pails morning and evening in the winter, so it is not too bad. My dh does it for me now that I blew out my back again. Until 2 weeks ago, it was a big part of my fitness routine!

Because the pasture was weedy forest a few years ago, the topsoil is fragile and thin and it is taking some time to build it up. I wish I had my "before" pics, but they were lost in a computer crash. The difference is amazing.

I still have a section of the pasture that has not had a heavy layer of compost added, and you can really see the difference. There are few edible plants and you can see the sand. We are on many feet of sand, so any rain drains out quickly. Any puddle is gone within hours of even the heaviest rains. That makes the need for lots of compost even more urgent.

BTW, the chickens work the compost pile and turn the goat bedding into very nice, rich, black, crumbly compost very quickly. I even spread it on my lawn, which was a square of dirt when we moved in, edged with raspberry canes (not useful ones) and huge multiflora bushes, and wild cherry saplings (not the good kind, again!) Now all but one stubborn patch (runoff takes the compost away, but it is improving over time) is a lovely green lawn.

 

[The Old Ram-Australia]

Hi Bossroo,you are correct in that "pasture management "for horses is a completely different regime.Generally speaking you are feeding to replace energy,rather than harvesting a commodity.IE:Milk,Meat or Fiber.This means that the minerals are being depleted from the animals in some cases on a daily basis............Goats and Sheep because of there size are only able to take up small amounts of minerals,whereas Cattle due to their size can replace much more,Goats (I believe)suffer more from mineral depletion because because of the "very low" ratios of body fat and most "milkers"have been bred to produce as much milk as possible over a 24 hr period and the ability of the animal to take up sufficient is tested because not only must it replenish reserves for milk production ,but keep itself supplied as well................

Adding to the animals burden is the fact that much of the bought -in feeds have been produced from mineral deficient soils, artificially fertilised and in some cases over use of herbicides render the feeds of low value for what the farmer is trying to produce from it.

One answer is to only feed "organically grown",now I appreciate that this option is not an option for everyone due to cost /supply issues and so making available a "natural mineral"mix is the next best option in my view.

Thank you for your responses and we look forward to further comments and views on this topic........................T.O.R.

 

[The Old Ram-Australia]

Hi and thanks for "popping" by,Free has given us some info to think about in relation to he farm..............Her production of Compost is really great (I wish we could produce enough ,but I struggle to get enough for our "vege gardens").....In the areas where it washes out all the time ,is it a drainage line?..If so consider putting some structures across the flow to reduce the speed of the water down the slope,some old logs or a line of "field stone "will do.

With regard to the "swamp",is Liver Fluke a problem in your area?.........What type of goats do you have Milk,Meat or Fiber?...........What do you see as the "terminal" size of your herd?..........

Your plans for "rotational" grazing is a good one ,but the success of it depends on the "bounce back" after a grazing cycle.One way to measure this is to set "photo points"in each paddock(currently we have 16 paddocks on our 300 ac sheep block).In the first week of each month we take two photo's in each paddock,a distance shot and a straight down shot to access ground-cover and along with this we use a spreadsheet to record how many days a paddock is grazed and by how many head( at my age I cannot keep all this in my head)......Over time you get a pretty fair idea of how long it takes ,depending on the time of year and the ground-cover shot shows you how far along you are to getting 100% ground-cover 100% of the year.(this may prove difficult if you are "snowed in" for 3 months of the year though)

This Christmas tree farm,does it adjoin your place?Because if the owners would allow it you may be able to take the goats for a walk and clean up weeds etc(I assume your goats are very quiet and they would follow you around picking up "treats "as they went.)This type of activity is very good for the stock,both nutritionally and mentally and it gives the "flockmaster "a quiet time to think about the farm and its future.

Thanks for your Post and we hope to hear from you again......T.O.R.....

 

[Horsefly]

I've been reading your post and it is quite informative. I didn't know that thistles pull up minerals from the soil, does this work with all plants with deep tap roots? I'm also interested in you mineral mix, where do you get the components for it? I only have a few goats and may possibly get some sheep soon so I don't know how practical it would be to mix my own mineral and feeds. Where my goats are kept is 75% stage 4 young forest and 25% stage 3 annual grasses and forbs, along with a large pond. When we moved here 7 yrs ago it was all a grass pasture but not owing anything big enough to cut that much grass the back half became overgrown and eventually the tallow trees took over and became kind of woodsy back there. Perfect for goats.
I enjoy reading through your post and picking up tidbits of wisdom from them, I don't have much experiance to reply with but I hope you continue to post for us to read.