ND Goat with ultra dry, flaking skin - Vet suggests euthanizing?

babsbag

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As a Grade A dairy I can't use them or store them

This is from FARAD as a restricted drug,

SYSTEMICALLY–ACTING DRUGS THAT ARE APPLIED TOPICALLY (including Fenthion, Famphur and Xylene, Phosmet, Levamisole and all ivermectins and avermectins) – use of, or storage with lactating cattle medications, is a violation of Item 15r-Drug and Chemical Control

@WildOaksManor I wouldn't be putting her down just yet, good for you fighting for her. You said that her legs were scabby and sore? There is a leg mite and I would be suspicious of that.
 

OneFineAcre

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https://media.wix.com/ugd/aded98_c7a6cc3b624043aeaefe8693f9f13c71.pdf
pg2-
With the exception of fenbendazole administered at the 5 mg/kg dose, these drugs are not approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for use in goats, and when used in goats are considered extra label use. Fenbendazole at the recommended dose rate of 10 mg/kg is also considered extra-label usage. The FDA regards extra-label use of drugs as an exclusive privilege of the veterinary profession and is only permitted when a bona fide veterinarian-client-patient relationship exists and an appropriate medical diagnosis has been made. The following chart is intended to serve as a guideline for improving accuracy when dosing goats with an anthelmintic, but these drugs should be used in goats only when appropriate veterinary advice has been received. Cattle pour-on dewormers should NEVER be used in goats to treat internal parasites

The op mentioned-

I realized that I misunderstood what you were saying
I said in my post that I wouldn't use a pour on to worm
I thought you were saying it in the context that it would be harmful


It could be an option for external parasites ( upon guidance of your vet)

But by the same token using injectable ivermectin for cattle and swine as an oral for goats is extra label
The same as Cydectin for sheep used on goats
Like you said
 

norseofcourse

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I'm confused...

@WildOaksManor said "Arrow was wormed with Ivermectin pour-on". Was the product given orally, or was it poured on externally? I'm not sure that was made clear (or maybe it was and I missed it).

It does seem that whichever delivery method was used, it wouldn't clear coccidia, so using it for that doesn't seem quite right...

Then the posts regarding whether it's safe... am I reading them right?

@OneFineAcre posted (partial quote): "Ivermectin Pour-On for Cattle
This is a cattle product but is commonly used on goats as Off Label"

and @Southern by choice posted (partial quote): "Cattle pour-on dewormers should NEVER be used in goats to treat internal parasites"

I underlined two words... seems like both could be right - cattle pour-on dewormers are ok on goats topically (on), but not internally (in). ??

Poor Arrow, I sure hope something can help her. I'd likely do a mineral analysis (of her and maybe one of the healthiest looking goats, for a comparison), and try some of the castor oil topically. I know for myself, warm water makes dry skin feel better temporarily, but it's just as bad if not worse when it dries out again. Good luck with her...
 

OneFineAcre

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I'm confused...

@WildOaksManor said "Arrow was wormed with Ivermectin pour-on". Was the product given orally, or was it poured on externally? I'm not sure that was made clear (or maybe it was and I missed it).

It does seem that whichever delivery method was used, it wouldn't clear coccidia, so using it for that doesn't seem quite right...

Then the posts regarding whether it's safe... am I reading them right?

@OneFineAcre posted (partial quote): "Ivermectin Pour-On for Cattle
This is a cattle product but is commonly used on goats as Off Label"

and @Southern by choice posted (partial quote): "Cattle pour-on dewormers should NEVER be used in goats to treat internal parasites"

I underlined two words... seems like both could be right - cattle pour-on dewormers are ok on goats topically (on), but not internally (in). ??

Poor Arrow, I sure hope something can help her. I'd likely do a mineral analysis (of her and maybe one of the healthiest looking goats, for a comparison), and try some of the castor oil topically. I know for myself, warm water makes dry skin feel better temporarily, but it's just as bad if not worse when it dries out again. Good luck with her...

My post was from one of the goat supply sites and was referencing using it for external parasites
It says that it is not effective for worms in goats

As to the warning on the link SBC shared I'm not sure if it means using as a pour on or using the pour on product orally

Good question
 
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WildOaksManor

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https://media.wix.com/ugd/aded98_c7a6cc3b624043aeaefe8693f9f13c71.pdf
pg2-
With the exception of fenbendazole administered at the 5 mg/kg dose, these drugs are not approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for use in goats, and when used in goats are considered extra label use. Fenbendazole at the recommended dose rate of 10 mg/kg is also considered extra-label usage. The FDA regards extra-label use of drugs as an exclusive privilege of the veterinary profession and is only permitted when a bona fide veterinarian-client-patient relationship exists and an appropriate medical diagnosis has been made. The following chart is intended to serve as a guideline for improving accuracy when dosing goats with an anthelmintic, but these drugs should be used in goats only when appropriate veterinary advice has been received. Cattle pour-on dewormers should NEVER be used in goats to treat internal parasites

The op mentioned-


ACK! I said he recommended it for mites - I meant LICE. Visible Lice. Not mites. So sorry!
Like I mentioned previously, I don't know a ton about goats and the things that plague them. Yet.

(So, would it make more sense that he prescribed it? The thing that confuses me, is before the Ivermectin, they had medium levels of internal parasites, and the last fecals, done last week (after 3 months) showed low levels. No other wormers were used. ??)
 

WildOaksManor

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I'm confused...

@WildOaksManor said "Arrow was wormed with Ivermectin pour-on". Was the product given orally, or was it poured on externally? I'm not sure that was made clear (or maybe it was and I missed it).

It does seem that whichever delivery method was used, it wouldn't clear coccidia, so using it for that doesn't seem quite right...

Then the posts regarding whether it's safe... am I reading them right?

@OneFineAcre posted (partial quote): "Ivermectin Pour-On for Cattle
This is a cattle product but is commonly used on goats as Off Label"

and @Southern by choice posted (partial quote): "Cattle pour-on dewormers should NEVER be used in goats to treat internal parasites"

The Ivermectin was POURED on, from the base of the neck to tail.

I'm confused as well. The goat with the high coccidia load had a fecal done prior to the Ivermectin, showing high numbers at the end of Sept. Then Ivermectin was applied, (9-30-16) as well as many immune boosting remedies, an anti-biotic, molasses in warm water 3 x's daily, extra grain, pro-biotics, minerals, ACV in water, yeast, etc.....then fecal repeated last week. All clear. What would have gotten rid of the coccidia? It wouldn't go away on it's own, right??

*Edited to correct spelling error
 

babsbag

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No, coccidia does not go away on its own. Do you have absolute faith in the person running the fecals? I am baffled as to why any vet would prescribe any kind of wormer for coccidia, they ALL know better than that. Something doesn't fit is all that I can say.

I asked this earlier, but want to make sure that you saw this. Are you sure that she does not have leg mites? Your description would make me suspect leg mites. Also the bumps on the ears would make me suspect mites. From what I have read you would need to actually rub the treatment on the legs, not just pour it on their backs for leg mites. I would certainly try the Nu-Stock, I have heard good things about that stuff.
 

WildOaksManor

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No, coccidia does not go away on its own. Do you have absolute faith in the person running the fecals?

Well, no, that was my first encounter with this particular veterinary clinic, and my first Ill doe....But I can't think of why they would falsify the results either. ??

I asked this earlier, but want to make sure that you saw this. Are you sure that she does not have leg mites? Your description would make me suspect leg mites. Also the bumps on the ears would make me suspect mites. From what I have read you would need to actually rub the treatment on the legs, not just pour it on their backs for leg mites. I would certainly try the Nu-Stock, I have heard good things about that stuff.

No, not sure at all. This thread is the first cause for me to consider them as being a possible issue. Would leg mites cause a whole body skin issue? All the way to the tip of her nose? And what would be the best test to get to check for them? They are microscopic/invisible, correct? No way for me to see them? Is this a likely issue, if all other goats (besides her sister) appear unaffected?
 

babsbag

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I don't think that the vet would falsify the results but if a technician ran the fecals maybe they didn't see what they thought they did. But then again, sometime it is the vet that misses something as sometimes it is their staff that does all the fecals. Just asking because a wormer would not get rid of cocci and every vet on the planet knows that. But you said an antibiotic...what was she on? Some antibiotics are given for cocci, but they are usually given orally.

Mites can also cause mange. And yes, they could get them on their ears, their nose, and every where. And not every goat will get them, but it is interesting that her sister is affected too. Here is something I have bookmarked from another site, I will cut and paste. This is not my goat, but maybe this will help you. Everything I have read says that you need to treat the entire herd or at least all of their pen mates.

My boy that had it the worst started with flaky, dandruff skin......seemed to be just losing his winter coat, but it kept going and then his skin became crusty. I noticed some itching, nothing major at first.

I tried everything suggested from topicals to natural remedies.....about the time I would think he was getting better, but then it would get bad again.....it wasn't until I injected with Ivomec at 1cc per 40lbs that I saw improvement.....my boys are all doing great now, coats are becoming healthy again.......I also copper bolused mine every 6 months of which was due about the time I started having issues......so I bolused them and I also gave them supportive supplements for 2 weeks during the worst of this nightmare...... B Complex, vit E capsules, zinc tablets and vit C.....I also used Childrens Benydrel for itching. I did dip my worst guy with permectin II at the same time I injected with Ivomec, the other 2 boys I injected and then dusted with permectin powder....you need to treat at least 2x's 10 days apart and maybe 3x's depending on how bad they are.
 

OneFineAcre

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I don't think that the vet would falsify the results but if a technician ran the fecals maybe they didn't see what they thought they did. But then again, sometime it is the vet that misses something as sometimes it is their staff that does all the fecals. Just asking because a wormer would not get rid of cocci and every vet on the planet knows that. But you said an antibiotic...what was she on? Some antibiotics are given for cocci, but they are usually given orally.

Mites can also cause mange. And yes, they could get them on their ears, their nose, and every where. And not every goat will get them, but it is interesting that her sister is affected too. Here is something I have bookmarked from another site, I will cut and paste. This is not my goat, but maybe this will help you. Everything I have read says that you need to treat the entire herd or at least all of their pen mates.

My boy that had it the worst started with flaky, dandruff skin......seemed to be just losing his winter coat, but it kept going and then his skin became crusty. I noticed some itching, nothing major at first.

I tried everything suggested from topicals to natural remedies.....about the time I would think he was getting better, but then it would get bad again.....it wasn't until I injected with Ivomec at 1cc per 40lbs that I saw improvement.....my boys are all doing great now, coats are becoming healthy again.......I also copper bolused mine every 6 months of which was due about the time I started having issues......so I bolused them and I also gave them supportive supplements for 2 weeks during the worst of this nightmare...... B Complex, vit E capsules, zinc tablets and vit C.....I also used Childrens Benydrel for itching. I did dip my worst guy with permectin II at the same time I injected with Ivomec, the other 2 boys I injected and then dusted with permectin powder....you need to treat at least 2x's 10 days apart and maybe 3x's depending on how bad they are.

We have had a couple of does with mites. Hair loss around their eyes and you could see the bites on their hooves and between.
Ivermectin injections is what helped them.
 
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