Nigi doeling with diarrhea *Update*

[cyanne]

Okay, not wanting to start an argument, but I do have a couple of questions about this and would appreciate if anyone else with some experience would chime in as well.

I tried doing some research of my own on scour halt and whether you are supposed to stop when symptoms are gone or whether it is like any other antibiotic where that is a big No No and you are supposed to do the full course of treatment.

My search brought up a whole bunch of goat health/livestock info sites and I did not find anything that says you should stop after the symptoms go away. Most just said that you should use it as directed by the box.

When I searched for references to scour halt and peristalsis, I found several sites that had multiple meds listed including scour halt with info for each one. Scour halt had no notes about it possibly stopping peristalsis (on most sites), but several sites did strongly warn against using immodium AD for that reason.

I found a couple of sites which mentioned that scour halt "may halt peristaltis in adult goats" but it did not say that it would do that in babies (which seems weird to me since you would thing babies would be more sensitive than adults but that's what the sites said). These sites did not give any directions for avoiding this side effect and did not say to stop when symptoms went away, they just mentioned the halting of peristalsis as a potential risk of using this med on adult goats.

So, what I am wondering is which is right. I certainly don't want to kill my goat by over medicating, but I also don't want to make the mistake of stopping an antibiotic at the wrong time and having her relapse with a more resistant bug.

Would like to hear if anyone else has heard anything about scour halt stopping peristalsis and if it is a common thing or a rare complication. Also, is it something you have experienced or read from an official source or is it just something someone told you. I also have a call in to my vet to get her opinion.

 

[cyanne]

At this point I am thinking I won't continue the scour halt since I talked to Sandra over at Pecan Hollow and she said they usually only give one or two doses when they use scour halt and they've been doing this a lot longer than I have.

I spoke to the vet as well and she wasn't much help because she said she'd never heard of scour halt and when she consulted the other vet with more goat experience they said they had not heard anything about scour halt having anything to do with stopping peristalsis since he thought that it was just an antibiotic so it should not have that effect. Since they did not sound sure, I think I will take that advice with a grain of salt and stick with the breeder's advice.

 

[kimmyh]

Scour Halt is very useful in babies, and it can stop the runs in an adult, but my question is why would you want to stop the runs? A goat with diarrhea has an issue, bacterial, toxins, something, and stopping the diarrhea will not cure the causitive factor. All sick goats here get SQ fluids, they are way more effective in keeping the goat hydrated than anything you can drench them with, and that is the only reason we all fear scours. Once the goat is hydrated we treat the cause of the scours, which may require antibiotics, worming, cocci treatments, or poison control. I treated a doe once with Scour Halt who's only problem was a piggy complex with grain, and it worked, but I have since discovered treating with CD Antitoxin is a much better way to go. I would not use Scour Halt repeatedly on a goat, it will only mask the real problem.

 

[cmjust0]

Cyanne...I wasn't trying to start an argument, and I really didn't like getting snippy or harsh. I just wanted you to stop using Scour-Halt, and I'd much rather you be angry at me and think I'm a total jerk but not use more Scour-Halt than to be nice and liked and stand idly by holding my tongue while you did something -- based on my original recommendation -- that may have endangered your animal.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[cmjust0]

Scour Halt is very useful in babies, and it can stop the runs in an adult, but my question is why would you want to stop the runs? A goat with diarrhea has an issue, bacterial, toxins, something, and stopping the diarrhea will not cure the causitive factor.

In the vast majority of cases, I agree with you, but sometimes it's just necessary to get the scour stopped so you can outrun the fluid loss and keep the goat from going into shock and dying because if you don't, you won't get a chance to treat the actual cause..

If they're pooping big fat streams of yellow water, for instance...you just gotta get that stopped.

All sick goats here get SQ fluids, they are way more effective in keeping the goat hydrated than anything you can drench them with, and that is the only reason we all fear scours. Once the goat is hydrated we treat the cause of the scours, which may require antibiotics, worming, cocci treatments, or poison control. I treated a doe once with Scour Halt who's only problem was a piggy complex with grain, and it worked, but I have since discovered treating with CD Antitoxin is a much better way to go. I would not use Scour Halt repeatedly on a goat, it will only mask the real problem.

The doe of ours who died recently got electrolytes by mouth and SQ ringer's, but the scour still outran it and she dehydrated. Had we gotten the scour stopped more quickly, I think we could probably have saved her -- even if it meant trapping the pathogen and its toxins in the gut for a while.

To reiterate, though, I do agree with you.. If everything else is OK and you're looking at a scour that doesn't lead you to believe the animal will be dehydrated and dead within a day, I don't think Scour-Halt is something you run for immediately, and I don't think you just hit them with it over and over again..

It'll continue to basically be a rescue med here, used only when absolutely necessary...

 

[kimmyh]

cmjust0 All I can draw from is my personal experience, and the experiences related too me by my vet. So far, in the 12 years I have been involved in goats, I have never lost a goat to scours-be it one of mine or one brought in for treatment. But, I do things differently-each to their own. The goats that came in with repetitive sporatic diarrhea were tested and found to have E.Coli, which I treated with Quatracon 2x and Tetracycline. All survived, and were retested free of E.Coli. I do not drench liquids/electrolytes, but I force feed cooked and gound beet pulp or cooked carrots that are liquified, to keep the rumen functioning if they are off feed. I do not treat for scours perse but rather look for the cause and attack that front.

In your case it seems the cause has been elusive, but if those goats were here, I would be tracking E.Coli treatments to keep them alive, and checking fields, feeds, and sleeping quarters. But back to the Nigi-the heart of this thread. If this was my doe I would give her CD Antitoxin, twice a day for 2-3 days (along with the SQ fluids and drenching if she was off feed), and watch to see her reaction. During those days of treatment I would have a fecal done to check for cocci and worms. If the diarrhea stopped and remained stopped 2 days after treatment ceased, I would assume she had a mild case of Entro. CD Antitoxin can not hurt the goat, and it can save their life, it will not kill off the good bacteria in the gut the way antibiotics can.

 

[cmjust0]

So...how's the doeling, Cyanne? Any updates?

Hope everything's OK now...