Non-Charlie Broken × Self = all 7 broken kits???

GypsyG

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Hey guys. I am very confused. I have a non traditionally colored 100% broken NZ doe. She is broken, so both times I have bred her I bred her to a solid buck. Both litters were 100% broken. She certainly does not appear to be a Charlie! Her first litter was only four, so I was wrote it off as a genetic Yahtzee... But when she had her current litter of seven I started thinking there might be something odd going on. They are all broken, but some are odd with just a bit of roaning on their heads, and white legs and belly's, and still others are so white the look like charlies.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Could there be some other pattern gene that I'm unaware of at play here?

Here's Mom, Roanie -
KIMG0169.jpg


Dad, Barry
KIMG0174.jpg


Litter -
KIMG0567.jpg


I'll take some better updated litter pictures later today.

It's not coming from dad, when bred with self does he has 100% self colored litters.

Any ideas? I'm super confused.
 

Bunnylady

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"How can we drive her crazy today?!":gig

The odds of a normal broken (which your girl most certainly appears to be) producing 11 brokens and no solids when bred to a solid is something like 1 in 2,048. Unlikely, but clearly, not impossible (imagine that you have 11 coins in your hands. Shake 'em up, and drop them on the table. If you came up with 11 "heads," you'd probably say something like, "huh, I wonder what the odds of that are?" Now you know - 1 in 2,048!) .:hu

The little guy with only a little white on the face and feet at the bottom of the picture appears to be a "booted" broken. The broken gene sets the pattern (white areas on a colored coat) but just how that pattern gets expressed depends on some little helper genes. With the right helpers, you can get something as detailed as the English Spot or even a Dwarf Hotot, but without the right helpers, you get a booted. In almost all breeds that show in broken, a rabbit with so little white would be unshowable. A rabbit from a long line of solids is less likely to have the right helpers, so booteds often happen when crossing a random broken to a random solid. On the other hand, a rabbit from show lines with lots of broken relatives is more likely to have the right helpers, so is less likely to produce booteds.

You may find that some of those babies that appear to be lightly marked may be tricolors (broken harlequin), and may have more color on them than it seems. Then again, they may just be lightly marked; time will tell.

Congrats on the warm and wigglies!
 
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GypsyG

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"How can we drive her crazy today?!":gig

The odds of a normal broken (which your girl most certainly is) producing 11 brokens and no solids when bred to a solid is something like 1 in 2,048. Unlikely, but clearly, not impossible (imagine that you have 11 coins in your hands. Shake 'em up, and drop them on the table. If you came up with 11 "heads," you'd probably say something like, "huh, I wonder what the odds of that are?" Now you know - 1 in 2,048!) .:hu

The little guy with only a little white on the face and feet at the bottom of the picture appears to be a "booted" broken. The broken gene sets the pattern (white areas on a colored coat) but just how that pattern gets expressed depends on some little helper genes. With the right helpers, you can get something as detailed as the English Spot or even a Dwarf Hotot, but without the right helpers, you get a booted. In almost all breeds that show in broken, a rabbit with so little white would be unshowable. A rabbit from a long line of solids is less likely to have the right helpers, so booteds often happen when crossing a random broken to a random solid. On the other hand, a rabbit from show lines with lots of broken relatives is more likely to have the right helpers, so is less likely to produce booteds.

You may find that some of those babies that appear to be lightly marked may be tricolors (broken harlequin), and may have more color on them than it seems. Then again, they may just be lightly marked; time will tell.

Congrats on the warm and wigglies!
I did notice that the some of the more lightly marked ones have brindling on their belly, but I don't see a third color. The mom is steel too, does that further complicate the harliquin gene?
 

GypsyG

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"How can we drive her crazy today?!":gig

The odds of a normal broken (which your girl most certainly is) producing 11 brokens and no solids when bred to a solid is something like 1 in 2,048. Unlikely, but clearly, not impossible (imagine that you have 11 coins in your hands. Shake 'em up, and drop them on the table. If you came up with 11 "heads," you'd probably say something like, "huh, I wonder what the odds of that are?" Now you know - 1 in 2,048!) .:hu

The little guy with only a little white on the face and feet at the bottom of the picture appears to be a "booted" broken. The broken gene sets the pattern (white areas on a colored coat) but just how that pattern gets expressed depends on some little helper genes. With the right helpers, you can get something as detailed as the English Spot or even a Dwarf Hotot, but without the right helpers, you get a booted. In almost all breeds that show in broken, a rabbit with so little white would be unshowable. A rabbit from a long line of solids is less likely to have the right helpers, so booteds often happen when crossing a random broken to a random solid. On the other hand, a rabbit from show lines with lots of broken relatives is more likely to have the right helpers, so is less likely to produce booteds.

You may find that some of those babies that appear to be lightly marked may be tricolors (broken harlequin), and may have more color on them than it seems. Then again, they may just be lightly marked; time will tell.

Congrats on the warm and wigglies!
The sires mother is tri-colored
KIMG0390.jpg


The two blue ones have the brindled bellies, and the agouti (steel?) one do not.

KIMG0610.jpg

KIMG0607.jpg
 

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GypsyG

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Broken Chestnut



This isn't brindling, it's just a thing that you often see on booted brokens. Here you can see it on a (booted) broken red Mini Rex:

View attachment 58643
The mini rex is cute!

So booted broken are true broken? They shouldn't be bred to other broken because they might produce charlies?
 

GypsyG

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I guess that would mean my doe Mittens is broken too. I would have never thought of her as a broken rabbit...

KIMG0244.jpg


Maybe Daisy too, because she has a white toe...
 

Bunnylady

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The mini rex is cute!

So booted broken are true broken? They shouldn't be bred to other broken because they might produce charlies?
Yep, booted brokens are brokens, so the usual rules apply.

Mittens, on the other hand, probably isn't broken (En). Since she has just a couple of white paws, I'd be inclined to think that she has Dutch (Du); the same for Daisy. Of course, those sorts of markings can also come from Vienna (the gene that caused Blue-eyed White), but unless you know you are dealing with rabbits that came from someone who was playing with Vienna, I'd call that a real stretch.
 

GypsyG

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Yep, booted brokens are brokens, so the usual rules apply.

Mittens, on the other hand, probably isn't broken (En). Since she has just a couple of white paws, I'd be inclined to think that she has Dutch (Du); the same for Daisy. Of course, those sorts of markings can also come from Vienna (the gene that caused Blue-eyed White), but unless you know you are dealing with rabbits that came from someone who was playing with Vienna, I'd call that a real stretch.
Thank you for all your help and for being patient with all my many questions! You are really a wealth of information! I was told mittens was 3/4 NZ and 1/4 Flemish, but who knows. If you don't think she is broken that's a big relief, I had my big broken buck in mind for her when she gets old enough.

Now I'm curious about the Du gene now, so I'm about to go jump down that research rabbit hole!
 
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