Nubian goat diagnosis by OSU Animal Disease Diag. Lab.

[cmjust0]

OK guys, don't worry, I'll keep you informed. In fact, I called the vet back this afternoon and told him what CM said about the Baytril, AND ALSO WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THE SULMET.

Now get this: The vet agreed with CM.

You didn't have to act so shocked.

But he had been told by the head vet at OSU, our Oklahoma Ag college, to use the Sulmet.
So I asked him about the Baytril, and he said if the Sulmet doesn't work, we'll try the Baytril, or Nuflor. But more than one shot.

More than one shot, or no more than one shot? I see what you wrote, but I read it as 'no more' the first time through and utterly confused myself. Confirm that for me -- more than one shot?

I hope so.. I would think he'd give a pretty good round of Baytril, just to avoid the prospect of running into a Baytril-resistant relapse with one shot.

Also...when's the determination gonna be made about the Sulmet? After four days? If so...yeah, you're gonna get your Baytril on Monday, f'sho.

The vet is only out of vet school about 2 years. We don't have a vet around here that does much with goats. So I thought that at least Dr. G. keeps in contact with the school.

If you can convince him that you're never gonna threaten to take his license through some nasty court battle and that your goats are good learning experiences for him, he might open up a bit and be more willing to color outside the lines to learn new tricks on goats.

I think that's part of why our vets are good to us.. We totally understand that if they give them a cat penis relaxer pill (yep..true story) and the goat flops over dead, I'm not going to sue anybody. I'm going to say, 'Well, it was worth a shot, doc. Thanks for your help' and head off to bury my goat.

Good thing I'm giving her Probios plus twice a day.

In the meantime, she is jumping around and eating, doesn't have any temperature.

Do you guys think I'm being nutso??

Donna

Have you ever posted a picture of her snottiness? I mean...how bad is it? Does she ever have labored breathing or anything like that?

I'd like to see this goat.. Well...I'd actually like to lay hands on her, but seeing it is a good first step.

I mean, from what you're describing.....while I realize that the test just came back and said she had this really horrible form of pneumonia...and she may very well have quantities of that bacteria sufficient to constitute pneumonia on paper...but suffice it to say that I've found that goats just aren't much on reading.

 

[DonnaBelle]

Hi CM and all,

Well, when I said "shots" I meant that I would hope he would give her a series, not just one shot.

The first time I took her to the vet, he gave her one shot of Nuflor, which really did nothing.

I could tell when he called me yesterday and told me that he had talked to his professor/mentor at OSU he was not going to give me the gentamicin. He is really doing a CYA if you know what I mean. And believe me, I don't blame him. If it's off-label and I decided to sue him, well, I just don't blame him for protecting his degree and his livelihood. Plus, I have only known him since Sept. 09 when he started treating Annie. The only thing he knows about me is that I am willing to write him a check for taking care of a goat, which a lot of people who have them won't even bother to worm.

So, if I can get a good picture of her snotty nose tomorrow, I'll post it.

Thanks for everyone's concern. And CM, come on down to OKlahoma and I'll show you my goat.

Donna

 

[ksalvagno]

If this vet is willing to work with you and learn, then that is a good thing too and eventually he will be a good goat vet. Sometimes a willing to learn vet is just as good as a knowledgeable one. I can speak from experience with the alpacas.

As he gets to know you and as he gets more comfortable in his own practice, he may ease up on the drug thing. I have a very good relationship with my vets and can usually get the drugs I need with no problem.

 

[Roll farms]

Info taken from Langston U.'s site...

There are few drugs cleared by the Food and Drug Administration for use in goats. Many drugs used to treat diseases in goats are used in an off-label manner, meaning that they are administered in a manner not according to their labeled use. This is referred to as ELDU (extra-label drug use) and can only be authorized by a veterinarian in the context of a valid veterinarian - client - patient relationship. In general this means that 1) the veterinarian has been to the farm, examined the animal(s) in question and determined that no approved drug exists to treat their condition or that the dosage prescribed for an approved drug is ineffective; 2) the veterinarian instructs the producer on proper use and administration of the drug and determines an appropriate withdrawal period; and 3) the veterinarian is available in the case of adverse reaction to the drug and for follow-up examination and treatment. All three conditions must be met for ELDU. Complete records of animal number, drug given, dosage, route of administration, date, and specified withdrawal period must be maintained for all ELDU.

I read that as your vet CAN help you...if they're willing.

 

[DonnaBelle]

Hi all,

When I stopped by to pick up the Sulmet he came out and talked with me. He said the reason they won't give a meat/dairy animal the Gentamicin is because there is no withdrawal period established. Therefore no way to establish liability to the vet should a person become ill from the dairy/meat of an animal given the Gentamicin.

At first, when he did the cultures, and found out Gentamicin would be the best antibiotic for the illness Annie has, he said he would give it to her if I would sign and affidavit to not eat her or milk her.
I was willing to do that. However after he talked to OSU, he changed his mind and said no way, because no matter what I signed it could cost him his license because of the FDA law. He is forbidden by law to give it to an animal that could be milked/eaten. I told him that I knew a breeder that used it, and he immediately said "where did she get it" I told him she had said she got it off the internet, and he said she had to have a prescription to do that, and I said she said no, she just ordered without a prescription. He seemed astounded that someone would do that. Now remember, he is young, only out of vet school for about 2 years, and is very much following the rules.

I am giving Annie the Sulmet, started yesterday with 3 ounces. She sure doesn't like it. It tastes awful. It's definately bitter stuff.

So, this is for sure a continuing saga. I do have the option of taking her up to OSU if it comes to that. Which I might do, if her condition changes even a little bit for the worse.

It's about 15 degrees here now and the wind is really blowing.
Supposed to be warmer Monday. Sure takes the fun out of the outside chores.

DonnaBelle

 

[ksalvagno]

I'm assuming the Sulmet won't do much but at least he is willing to go to Baytril when it doesn't. I would also ask him about Draxxin if the Baytril doesn't work. You will need to give both Baytril and Draxxin more often to the goat than other animals though. They are both longer acting antibiotics.

Like I said, if he seems willing to learn and to help you, then just work with him. If he is new I'm sure he is terrified of doing something wrong and losing his license. Give him some time and let him get used to everything. Like you said, you can always take her to OSU if need be. I wouldn't write this vet off though if he is willing to learn and treat your goats.

 

[DonnaBelle]

Thanks Karen,

You are ever the voice of reason.

I shall simply "hang in here" and do the best for Annie I can.

I am soooo looking forward to Spring.

None of my critters are out today, not the goats or the chickens, or the dogs.

Everyone is inside their little abodes, since we have a North wind blowing about 25 mi an hour. Brutal.

I got some straw the other day that was chopped. It sure makes nice bedding for the goats. I throw a little Stall dry in every other day, and it is keeping them warm.

Donna

 

[cmjust0]

Any progress? Did you ever get Baytril/gentamicin, or did the Sulmet (by some miracle) help?

 

[DonnaBelle]

Hi CM and all,

Just got back from taking the girls out on their "goat walk". Thank goodness we can get out again. Weather is warmer. YEah.

We have been dosing Annie with Sulmet now for a week. No improvment. I am going to finish the bottle he gave me. I am not messing with that vet anymore, he just takes money with no results.

I am going to try to find some Gentamicin, I don't know how to do it though.

She is acting fine, but of course, that could change at any time.

DonnaBelle

 

[cmjust0]

Is there a goat association in your area? If so...see if you can figure out who's in it and start dialing. I think that's probably your best shot at finding the guy who knows that gal who knew that other fella...so on, so forth.

Best I can offer.. Sorry..

Keep us posted.