Nutrition and condition discussion

[SDGsoap&dairy]

Didn't want to hijack another thread so I created a new one! This is the post:

I'd like to join the discussion about condition in general. I'd like to hear how everyone here balances having enough condition on a doe at kidding that when she starts stripping condition in early lactation you DON'T end up with a "walking skeleton," but yet your does are not so overconditioned as to cause kidding issues.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been under the impression that it is darn tough in early lactation to put enough calories into a doe that she doesn't strip SOME condition without risking acidosis. So you'd want them in decent enough condition at kidding that it's ok if they lose some condition in early lactation and you don't have to jeopardize the rumen by overfeeding grain. Then you can focus on maintaining condition through lactation rather than trying to put it back on when they're producing.

The flip side of that, does that are overconditioned and have deposited large amounts of fat internally can be an equally disastrous situation.

Really, it seems to me that the goal shouldn't so much be going into kidding in good condition, it should be going into late GESTATION in good condition. If you've hit the 30 day (prior to) mark and then start trying to put weight on a doe you could end up with a still skinny doe and enormous kids because they're putting all the nutrition into the growing fetus.

I'd love to hear more about everyone's approach to maintaining ideal condition throughout a single cycle of a doe's dry/open, gestating, lactating/open, lactating/gestating, dry/pre-kidding status. This is (or should be) different for every doe so I'm not talking about quantities of feed here... but when do you typically see does having a harder time maintaining the ideal and how do you handle it? What types of feed do those extra calories come from? When are you most concerned with nutritional disorders (ketosis, hypocalcemia, etc.) and how do you adjust your feeding to handle that? This is a huge topic, but I'd love to hear some input on everyone's nutritional goals and management practices.

And also, because ideal condition is somewhat subjective, maybe we can have some pics of "under, ideal, over." The reality is that most likely everyone's does are not ALWAYS in the condition the producer strives for (whether they're over or under) because a doe's needs are never constant and you have to adjust based on results.

 

[Livinwright Farm]

I see this as being a GREAT educational thread on over-all goat condition(bucks & does)!

 

[20kidsonhill]

I will get some pics of my heavier does at 3 weeks into lactating and a couple does that have come down on weight really fast. And discuss what I am doing in a herd situation (18does) to help them.

Great topic idea.

 

[aggieterpkatie]

The time I'm most concerned about proper conditioning is after weaning but before re-breeding, especially for sheep. That's the easiest time to put weight on a female, because she's not lactating (not including dairy goats) and she's not pregnant. I want to go into breeding season in an ideal body condition so it doesn't interfere with her cycling and settling. Once you get them at a good body condition, you can start the gestation period with a maintenance diet. I only really up the intake when it's the last month or so of gestation. My doe mainly loses condition in early lactation, and it's hard to catch up. In dairy animals, I'd look to increase nutrition if needed (or decrease it if needed, but it's not likely) in the time before re-breeding. By that time the doe is coming down from peak lactation and it will be easier to put weight on.

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

If you look at my website, the pic of my senior doe Sandy is what I would consider her ideal condition. She's dry/early bred in that photo. If you look at the two ffs you can see junior photos. Gabby is about 6 months and immature. She's in a gangly stage, but a little under my ideal BCS nonetheless. By the time she was 9 months she had matured and plumped up quite a bit. LC is about 12 months in that photo and still open. I didn't own her at the time and wouldn't have had my hands on her, but she's probably slightly over. Not by much though, and going into her first breeding season I'd rather have my Jr. doe slightly over prior to late gestation than under.

My Jr. buck, Pie, is also 6 months in the website photo. Their growth spurts seem to be up then out, up then out, rather than in both directions at once. He was at the end of an up stage and about to hit an out stage. He's a little lean in that pic, but 6 weeks later the condition he'd put on made him much more smoothly blended. Here's a photo taken 6 weeks later than the website photo:

 

[SDGsoap&dairy]

The time I'm most concerned about proper conditioning is after weaning but before re-breeding, especially for sheep. That's the easiest time to put weight on a female, because she's not lactating (not including dairy goats) and she's not pregnant. I want to go into breeding season in an ideal body condition so it doesn't interfere with her cycling and settling. Once you get them at a good body condition, you can start the gestation period with a maintenance diet. I only really up the intake when it's the last month or so of gestation. My doe mainly loses condition in early lactation, and it's hard to catch up. In dairy animals, I'd look to increase nutrition if needed (or decrease it if needed, but it's not likely) in the time before re-breeding. By that time the doe is coming down from peak lactation and it will be easier to put weight on.

 

[20kidsonhill]

The time I'm most concerned about proper conditioning is after weaning but before re-breeding, especially for sheep. That's the easiest time to put weight on a female, because she's not lactating (not including dairy goats) and she's not pregnant. I want to go into breeding season in an ideal body condition so it doesn't interfere with her cycling and settling. Once you get them at a good body condition, you can start the gestation period with a maintenance diet. I only really up the intake when it's the last month or so of gestation. My doe mainly loses condition in early lactation, and it's hard to catch up. In dairy animals, I'd look to increase nutrition if needed (or decrease it if needed, but it's not likely) in the time before re-breeding. By that time the doe is coming down from peak lactation and it will be easier to put weight on.

I agree, if you have gone into the pregnancy already under condition you aren't going to beable to put much weight back on, and you certainly aren't going to make much head way during lactating.

 

[20kidsonhill]

I don't know how helpful this will be, but here are couple photos of does that are now 3 weeks into nursing that have come down on condition and in my opninion under weight.


This doe is the example of in rough shape and dumpy looking. We have kept her because her kids do well in the show rink. Our goal with her is just keep her alive. She has learned that I will give her extra feed if she sticks around me, so she is on an extra feeding a day. she is high boer percentage maybe witha little dairy in her.

I am looking forward to trying the copasure on this doe below. She is milking a set of twins and they are growing like crazy and she is steady coming down on weight. She is 50%boer/50% Nubian

My 18 does are on 1 bale of alfalfa hay(45lbs), 1 bale of mixed 2nd cut grass hay(50lbs, free-choice goat minerals;

1lb of 16% pelleted medicated goat feed, 1/2 to 3/4 cups crimped(rolled)corn, and 1 cup dried beet per doe.

We kid mostly in winter, if I had pasture I wouldn't be feeding hay.

We wean at 8 weeks of age.

After weaning the does are only on pasture or if no pasture, hay.

They are put back on grain for 3week before breeding, then taken off when the buck is put in with them.

Tehy are then put back on grain 4 to 6 weeks before kidding 1lb per doe.

 

[AlaskanShepherdess]

I was just about to start a topic on the discussion of condition. Thanks n.smithurmand!

I am also very curious, right now all my my goats are together (1 buckling, four does) and I have stopped my "feed as much as they are satisfied with only" and all of them are rapidly putting the pounds back on. What I don't understand is why can't I do what "everyone else" does and just throw out hay and not end up with over conditioned goats? Is it a nutrition problem, my cold climate (eating to produce heat), or lack of exercise?

 

[TheMixedBag]

Excellent idea (and again, apologies for yesterday. This doe's condition is a sore subject for me, as I will probably never be able to get her into any kind of "good" condition).

So, here's my situation. Everyone is fed together (1 buck, 2 does). I feed 3 scoops (4 quarter horse scoop) of alfalfa pellets, one scoop beet pulp, 2 handfuls of Manna Pro loose mineral and canola oil, with the occasional bit of alfalfa hay, usually about 3 flakes of compressed. Usually they all finish it off, only the nubian is ever shoved away from the feed, and she's still a little chunky. The other 2 share pretty well and usually get most of the feed.

Right now, this doe is at day 140 in pregnancy, and I'm expecting twins at best (ultrasound only showed a single). She's pretty wide, but has no conditioning over her hips, back or shoulder, but she's got fat over her ribs and her tailbone, and along her brisket and underbelly. In my eyes, she's skinny, but not horribly under typical dairy goat condition (again, I see "show conditioned" does as overweight, but that's just me). She is from heavy producing lines, of which most does end up looking like this in the last month of pregnancy. As of right now, she's a shade over 2 years old (Feb/2009)
Right now, I am asking what I can do to improve her condition. As it is, I'm probably not going to start milking her until about 3/4 weeks after she kids, and work on building production up from there.

This buck, well, I'm about through with him. He's been skinny since I got him, and "growth spurt" as an excuse only goes so far. It doesn't matter what I feed him, he still feels skinny and looks skinny to me. Now admittedly, his breeder did say he would always be smaller, and he is only a yearling (he'll be 2 in April), but I don't see his condition as anywhere near ideal for a young buck. He does have fat over his ribs, but his skin is loose, and he's got virtually nothing over his hips or back. He's still in better condition than the doe, however.
He will be going to his new home soon, however, so he's not as much of an issue.