Organic Minerals, Grain Rations..... Lots of Questions!

AlaskanShepherdess

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Hello! (this is a long post so I provided a summarization below for your convenience. ;) )

I REALLY want to provide my goats with organic (as in utilized by a plant or animals before we eat it) vitamins and minerals as much as possible because of their better utilization by the body and lower risk of OD'ing or having too much stored in the body (organic minerals are not stored in the body when there is excess they are simply passed out. Inorganic minerals, like most standard mixes very little is properly used by the body and excesses can be stored in the body). I do it for myself so why not for my goats. :D My problem is, there isn't many of us out there. :/ So I'm going on what little information I have plus how my goats look and feel, which I've only had goats for 6 months..... :) So I'm looking for opinions/advice on if you think kelp (I use Thorvin), and maybe some nutritional yeast and others are enough minerals, or if not which minerals would I have to provide more of?

I live in the interior of Alaska, which is selenium deficient and I think copper deficient. Or it may not be copper deficient, it may be just because we have WAY too much iron in the land, which according to the reading I have done excessive iron restricts copper absorption.

I plan to use Diamond V selenium yeast (if I can manage to get some!) paired with wheat germ to replace Bo-Se, which I will only give if I ABSOLUTELY have to (the Bo-Se). I really don't want to give them that, and have found research saying that selenium yeast has been found to be just as effective as a nonorganic source of selenium (like Bo-Se) Oh, and interestingly once I started giving my goats kelp, the few signs of selenium deficiency they had for sure disappeared!

I have NO idea yet what to do about the copper, and I have signs of copper deficiency. I really don't want to do boluses, and if possible again... Something organic.

I have 6 Nigerian Dwarf's, 4 does, 1 buck and 1 buckling (soon to be whether), and absolutely adore them! I currently have no does in milk, 2 are due in early Feb, one early April and one will soon be bred because we had to put the bucks and does together because it reached -20 below last week and my doe house is large and not yet insulated. The buck house is small and insulated. :)

I need some help figuring out the correct protein/mineral/grain ratios they need, so here is what I am currently doing.

I wasn't giving them any grain until two days ago when I realized that one of my does due in Feb was beginning to show symptoms of ketosis/toxemia (?). So I gave her BS molasses water, kelp, and now I am giving all of them 1 qt yogurt container of barley for all 6. (started sprouting some today so soon it will be sprouted barley) I eventually want to get some oats to add to that, and as I garden more I want to grow my own BOSS, flax seeds and whatever else I want to add that I can grow here. :) (open to hear what ya'll feed and grow for them! But I like to keep grain to a minimum)

Alfalfa does not grow up here, and it cost over $15 for a 65lb bale just to get it within 400 miles of me, so I don't get any alfalfa for them I buy local EXCELLENT brome, I guess I'll have to up my protein and calcium in other areas. :) I can buy alfalfa pellets, and plan on giving them small amounts (at the very least the does in milk/pregnant) but I don't know how much, and I want to keep my costs down....

I was reading somewhere that a goat should be getting about 5lb of "food" a day (I'm assuming it meant large goats, so ND's I'm sure are about half that) so I'm kind of concerned that they all are content with 2 medium sized flakes of hay a day, so long as they are getting the kelp every day. If I don't give them the kelp (half a cup each) then they want/need more hay. I don't feed them all they want like most people, because I have found that they are content on about half the hay they would eat if I gave them all they want. And actually since I added in the barley the last 2 days they've even had hay leftover in the bin when I take more out. They aren't shivering, and seem to be doing well. I was having issues with them all being overweight a month ago, but now I think only one is still overweight.

I was reading on the Holistic Goat group on Yahoo about the health effects of sulfured BS molasses. The lady gave 3 C a day split between her 12 Oberhases. (SP) I've been reading really mixed opinions about this, some don't ever give their goats anything sweet, and some swear that goats must have molasses, and saw some research on how the sulfur is needed to help keep high levels of friendly flora in the goats stomach. So looking for ya'lls opinions and how much you give your goats.

Sorry this is long and mixed up so I'll summarize. :duc

1. I need organic (as in herbs, yeasts, not salts, mined minerals etc) sources for all of my mineral needs. (I will use nonorganic if I have to, or it's just to costly) I am already providing Thorvin Kelp, and occasionally DE.
a. I need help figuring out if what I am giving/will give them is enough minerals.
b. I definitely need an additional organic source for copper.
c. I need information/opinions (research is always best!) on providing BlackStrap Molasses as an additional supplement to the kelp (I currently do not have sulfured, looking for some though).

2. How much grain (currently just barley) should I provide to each category of goats. (bucks, does in milk, kids...) keep in mind I'm a grain minimalist, but I also want decent milk production when they are in milk.

3. If my goats seem to be content with a small amount of hay (they definitely would eat more grain though) is it ok that they aren't getting the amount of roughage recommended?

4. How much alfalfa should I supplement (and do I need to?) and to whom?

5. I have been told that there was a study done finding that most probiotics given to goats are useless because goats have different species of friendly flora in their guts then what the probiotics provide. Thoughts?

Thanks!
Laura
http://rejoicingevermore.blogspot.com
 

ksalvagno

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AlaskanShepherdess

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Thank you, Pat Coleby's book is on my "buy asap" list and I have The Complete Herbal Handbook for Farm and Stable.

I have read Fiasco Farms materials a lot, but need to read more! :)
 

freemotion

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Are minerals organic/non-organic? :idunno Aren't they mined, not grown? I'm confused...

As for the grain, you can get so much more nutrition out of it by slightly sprouting it. I sprout for my goats in sprouting buckets I made. Barley is a wonderful grain to sprout for goats. I feed it to my poultry, too.

That's all I have for you! :p
 

()relics

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most minerals are non-organic. They can be made up of any sort of combinations of man-made chemical compounds...most aren't mined from the earth.
Corn/cereal grains are also not organic unless you specifically find an open pollinated grain. Most animal feed grain is a mixture of genetically modified grains, developed to be glyphosate tolerant or more fertile/productive.
I have not found anything that can supply enough synthesizable Selenium, if in fact your areais highly selenium deficient. In my opinion BoSe is more organic than other mineral mixes and common cereal grains...But I am a snakebitten skeptic anymore.
 

jodief100

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I only skimmed your post so I may have misunderstood something

I commend your attempts at trying to be as natural as possible. Please keep in mind if your soil is naturally Selenium deficient anything you grow yourself will have little to no selenium in it even if it normally is high in selenium, like BOSS.
 

AlaskanShepherdess

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freemotion said:
Are minerals organic/non-organic? :idunno Aren't they mined, not grown? I'm confused...

As for the grain, you can get so much more nutrition out of it by slightly sprouting it. I sprout for my goats in sprouting buckets I made. Barley is a wonderful grain to sprout for goats. I feed it to my poultry, too.

That's all I have for you! :p
Minerals are made/found in rocks. We mine them, and sometimes extract them chemically from rocks. That is where all of your standard minerals come from. They are heavily processed and not in a very bio-available form. When in this form all minerals have to be taken in large amounts because of the lack of bio-availability. Sometimes your body will take those minerals and store them in your body for future use. That is one of the causes of arthritis. These are called inorganic minerals.

Plants will take minerals from the soil and use them, when we or an animals eats that plant we ingest the minerals also. But because they have been used by the plant, they are now much more bio-available for our bodies to use. We need less minerals, because our body is better able to use these minerals, and your body is much less likely to store these minerals for later use. Most plants, like kelp also contain natural chelators, that help prevent our body from using too much and storing it in deposits in the body. This is organic minerals.

I was using Redmond animal salt for minerals before for about 2 months, and before that they had Manna Pro. (and my brother had convinced us that (Redmond) it was the same stuff as what was used for their human salts so we were using it too.) Well about a month ago I was looking into wether or not the salt was enough minerals or if I needed to give them something else. What I found shocked me! Redmond's animal salt is VERY VERY high in heavy metals! You won't find this information on the Redmond website, I had to find it on the website I had bought the salt from, Azure Standard. So here I was for myself not using aluminum for baking or cooking because of aluminum toxicity and yet I was poisoning us, and our goats with the salt. Needless to say I immediately stopped using it. Up until 2 ish weeks ago I wasn't giving them much, maybe a little kelp here and there. I was researching which brand of minerals was best for goats, and I wasn't very pleased with what I was finding. Everything seemed so chemically processed. About 2 weeks ago one of my bucks very suddenly died. I still have NO idea what it was, an experienced goat friend of me talked me through his care before he died and she was puzzled as it didn't sound like anything she was familiar with. The next day there was a blurb on the local news about musk ox mysteriously dying, and it turns out their pretty sure it was from mineral deficiency. The deaths sounded a lot like Verse's.

So I the next morning I went out and gave my goats pretty much all the kelp they could eat, and 1 week later gave them a lot more. Then I found out about people using it just for minerals, and finding out how much you should give them, and I have been giving them 1-2 oz per goat every day and WHAT A CHANGE!

A doe that had not gone into heat (I thought she had silent heats!) the whole time I had had her went into raging heat 1 week after the first large dose of kelp. My now only buck had been showing signs of selenium deficiency back when I bred him to my other girls in September (false mounts, A LOT) but when I bred her to the girl that was now in heat he mounted her successfully with no false mounts and did the deed 5 times in less then 5 minutes!

Before my goats were really struggling with the cold, they shivered every time they came out of their houses, they would wait until they were really hungry to come out and eat or drink because they didn't want to come out in the cold (which really wasn't that cold compared to what's coming yet this winter). Well this morning when I went out there, it was 30 degrees colder then what it had been when I saw the above behavior, and guess what? Several were out just standing around, getting a little exercise, and all the others immediately came out of the house for breakfast. This is a huge difference!

They are also eating less now, and their behavior is changing. For a while they were shying away from me, even the ones that loved to be pet and scratched. Now they are begging for my attention and will forgo food for a scratching.

I'm hooked on kelp. :D
 

freemotion

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That is pretty interesting. I've read a lot of great stuff on using various seaweeds for people....I think I'm gonna make some phone calls and see what I can find. It sure sounds worth experimenting with.

I've had good success with Poulin goat minerals, but again, I'm sure they are not organic.
 

Our7Wonders

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Hi Laura,

I don't have any advice because I've been a gaot owner for all of a week, but I did want to say that I found your post very interesting.

I wasn't aware of the Redmond salt issues, can you let me know where you found the info? I'd like to research it as well. I have just received both a Redmond salt and a Redmond conditioner from Azure but have not used either yet, I'd like to read up on it now before I start.

BTW, we love Azure's products too! We get our organic oats and organic barley from them. I've only used the oats so far, but when the goats freshen and I begin grain again I'll be soaking both for them as their main grain. We are self employed - our business involves delivery of Azure Standard good to areas that are not serviced by Azure directly - we cover several hundred miles along three different routes delivering Azure's goods.

Another BTW, I lived in Fairbanks through part of my grade school years - also in Fox, Alaska as well. I miss the annual trips to the North Pole during the Christmas season!

Keep warm!!!

Debbi
 

Our7Wonders

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I e-mailed the Redmond Salt company regarding the aluminum. I'm curious their take on it. I just read on Azure's website that aluminum was the first ingredient listed on the trace mineral listings, interesting.

Makes me curious about the trace minerals in the regular Redmond salt sold for people. I've never used it but many of my customers have. Personally our family prefers the gray celtic sea salt crystals that we grind in a ceramic grinder for our salt use - I may look into that as well.

I'll let you know if Redmond gives me a response.

Debbi
 

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