Pedigree Quandary

[rachels.haven]

So I have a bit of a pedigree quandary.
I have two adga registered nigerian dwarf bucks with ancestors from a certain herd that has had ethics and pedigree falsifying "issues". One of their ancestors (paternal grandfather on one who is the maternal grandfather on the other, same buck for each) can not be verified, proven or disproved, because he is dead and gone. They are both very nice bucks with histories of lots of milk production, persistent lactations, and good conformation and outstanding udders and teats on moms and grand moms on both sides. One is blue eyed and polled and both are very flashing, which are perks but not something I particularly care about. I've used one of them once because no other buck would cover this particular doe-she is large and in charge. The other I have not used at all. When I bought them I was unaware of the controversy just that these goats and their dams and grand dams and great grand dams met my criteria for making good bucks.

I'm still deciding how I feel about my options, although I kind of know which way I am going to go. I can sell them off with disclosure and papers as a bonus. I can use them knowing that their pedigrees can't be disproven because one grandfather aside they are good goats (I think if someone opens a dispute their papers can be taken away, but it's unlikely anyone will because this unprovable grandfather in question has a LOT of kids and it would make a lot of people several thousands of dollars angry). Or despite having papers still I could sell them as unregistered themselves and destroy the papers.

What would you do? Personal preference?

While I know which way I'm leaning I'm not sure one way or another is wrong or right. A lot of top breeders are using these lines, producing amazing goats that produce well, and selling kids for massive money still. But would you be willing and happy to do that for money, knowing pedigrees could be yanked on a whim and angry past customers demand refunds?

If it makes any difference I will still have one buck left from different lines who is still everything I like and one extra buck from the same lines in my tank so we will not go into buckless mode if these boys go. We'd probably import a buck from up north in a year or two. Or if they stay it would be a lot of fun.

 

[Finnie]

I don’t get the impression that you are in the business of selling prize goats for top dollar*. So is it possible for you to sell the registered offspring of those two bucks for normal goat prices, with the understanding that the known part of their ancestry is outstanding, and the unknown part should just be ignored? Disclosure, as you stated.

That still leaves buyers with the chance that their papers could be nullified some day, so that problem isn’t solved. But if they knowingly buy the goats and haven’t paid silly prices for the papers, they probably won’t care about that. That is, your customer base will have to be limited to people who aren’t all that interested in registration, but rather interested in knowing what the good parts of the pedigree are.

Eventually the questionable buck will be so far back in the lineage, it should cease to matter, right?


*If you are hoping to move into that kind of goat breeding business, then moving these two along would probably be best in the long run.

 

[Alaskan]

I don’t get the impression that you are in the business of selling prize goats for top dollar*. So is it possible for you to sell the registered offspring of those two bucks for normal goat prices, with the understanding that the known part of their ancestry is outstanding, and the unknown part should just be ignored? Disclosure, as you stated.

That still leaves buyers with the chance that their papers could be nullified some day, so that problem isn’t solved. But if they knowingly buy the goats and haven’t paid silly prices for the papers, they probably won’t care about that. That is, your customer base will have to be limited to people who aren’t all that interested in registration, but rather interested in knowing what the good parts of the pedigree are.

Eventually the questionable buck will be so far back in the lineage, it should cease to matter, right?


*If you are hoping to move into that kind of goat breeding business, then moving these two along would probably be best in the long run.

X2

 

[Baymule]

What about contacting the ADGA registration club for these two and asking about the controversy on their papers? Ask if their papers could be pulled, what is the danger of having their kids papers pulled? I would go to the source of the concern and find out just how big of a problem it is. Worst thing would be that the registration club would pull the papers now. You would have your answer.

Or better yet, I would WRITE the club, with copies of the papers, ask questions and voice concerns, and get an answer back IN WRITING. Point out that there are top breeders using these same lines and that you don't want to use these otherwise VERY nice bucks if there could be a dispute.

If they are good bucks, with other than the one grandfather, with good breeding, I don't see the problem if you get a good answer back from the ADGA. With full disclosure, plus a copy of the document in writing from the ADGA, people might be happy to buy kids at reasonable prices.

So I guess that is my answer. If I got a response back that the ADGA would not penalize the bucks or their offspring, then I would proceed with them. I would give customers full disclosure along with a copy of the letter I wrote and the ADGA response.

 

[Ridgetop]

I agree with Baymule about getting clarification on the paperwork from ADGA on these bucks.

Also, what or who is the source of the information about the paperwork problems? I would check out the reliability of the source. Information that seems to come from several sources can often be traced back to one person spreading it around.

You say that one buck cannot be "verified" since he is now dead, but if he was registered with ADGA and seems to be several generations back in your pedigrees, it seems unlikely that ADGA would pull his papers now. Since he is dead and cannot be "verified", he cannot be disproven either. If you have ADGA registration papers on both these bucks, and they are nice, and are producing well for you, I might be inclined to let sleeping dogs lie.

However, if there is a genuine possibility that ADGA is currently investigating these breeders and the buck in question, you could call ADGA and discuss your concerns with the authorities. HOWEVER! Be aware that if what you have heard is just gossip you could be opening a can of worms by questioning the legitimacy of the buck and his registration paperwork. If there is no truth to this rumor you could also be getting yourself in the middle of some feud between breeders. And believe me those things happen!

 

[rachels.haven]

The source is unfortunately ADGA. They finished investing the breeder, pulled one buck's pedigree that had offspring and belonged to someone else, made it so the breeder couldn't register anything for 5 years and had to dna everything afterward. Most people think she should have been kicked the registry due to track record (and I won't get into the gossip about that and why they think that wasn't done). ADGA says if there is an animal that comes up in a dispute resulting from a DNA test or DNA family profile not matching papers will just be pulled potentially on any animals in question.

I've opted to sell these two at unregistered price with the papers as a bonus and anyone inquiring gets to see the names on their pedigrees first.

 

[rachels.haven]

And their last living ancestor in question, the grand parent bred by that breeder, has now had his DNA sent in. Unfortunately his parents can't be verified and he is from a line that has had foul play occur, but if I kept them they would come up as his progeny so that would be correct but that's all we'd know. They are probably undisprovable, but I do not want to use them and someone else can buy and use them if they do.

 

[Baymule]

Very wise choice.
You don't need that drama.

 

[Ridgetop]

Sounds like you have weighed all the options and made your decision. Such a shame that you invested in those 2 bucks and now can't use them. I agree that the breeder should have been kicked out permanently. A lot of people have now lost money and more importantly years of breedings down the drain! Sorry for your losses but you are right to avoid any problems now and just go on from this point.

 

[Finnie]

I agree. The whole situation is a shame. It’s too bad you have to sell those two nice bucks. But whoever buys them now will have advanced warning, and it sounds like they will have some awesome genetics to use at least for their own flock.

I can just imagine the gossip and backstabbing going on around that breeder! Good for you, to just avoid all that. As @Ridgetop said, what a loss to all the honest breeders who have built their program using those pedigrees.