persistant illness -update post 7

[treeclimber233]

Last July I had two does get sick with direaha. I lost both does very quickly.I called the vet but it was too late for them. When another one showed the same symptoms I called the vet again. He did not really diagnose any specific illness -- just digestive upset. He gave me some ceftiflex. Told me to administer once a day for 5 days. After I did this my goat (and others that came down with "it")seemed all better. However in a few weeks one showed symptoms again. 5 more days of shots. Later she came down with it again. 5 more shots. She eventually died. Now 2 months later another one is sick again with the same symptoms. My question is why does it keep coming back? One doe and her doeling never got it and my buck never got it. I am wondering if giving 2 shots a day will help or if it will overdose her. Any thoughts????

 

[cmjust0]

Can you sorta describe the scour to us? As in, the color, consistency, frequency..? Also, how is the goat acting?

I ask because it's usually helpful in narrowing down potential causes.. For instance, if it's a green scour and the goat seems fine, it's usually dietary and no big deal at all, whereas if the scour is like dirty yellow water, maybe with some blood or shreds of gut lining, I'd generally go with something bacterial like ecoli or salmonella.. Black or very dark, coccidia -- unless you've given pepto, because pepto can cause black stool.. Persistent dog logs w/ episodes of brown pudding poo and the goat seems OK, I usually think something like mild coccidia or possibly some type of gutworm..

If you're really, really concerned that you're not going to have enough time to pin this down to something specific, you might consider a shotgun approach.. Some people cringe, but...well, vets do it all the time, its worked many times for me, and I'd just frankly rather have a live goat and the stigma of a shotgunner than to have a dead goat and the moral victory of resisting the urge to shotgun..

Anyway.. My shotgun for a dangerous scour is:

ML-class dewormer -- cydectin or ivomec, oral
BZ-class dewormer -- safeguard or valbazen, oral, 1x/day for 3 days
oral antibiotic -- scour halt or oral neomycin, repeat every 12-24hrs if scours persist.
coccidia med -- sulfadimethoxine, aka dimethox, oral. I dose at 25mg/lb of bodyweight, 1x/day, 5 days. Note -- that's 25 *milliGRAMS* per pound, not milliLITERS.
injectable antibiotic -- usually oxytetracycline, or sometimes Excenel/Naxcel

In addition to all that, I usually give a shot of b-vitamin as a pick-me-up, and if the animal seems weak I'll also give about a half-ounce of Red Cell (which I personally find myself increasingly using in place of Nutri-Drench these days) 1x/day for several days.. I'll also check my record books to see if they need Selenium.. If they do, or if they're reasonably close to their scheduled dose, I'll go ahead and give a shot of Bo-Se..

Seems like a lot, and it is, but I've found it to be very effective and a whole lot less worrisome than trying to nail something down with time running out.

 

[treeclimber233]

The direaha is a dark brown and is covering her back end. She is not eating much at all and losing weight. She has been wormed several times. First with a horse wormer (not sure now which one) and later with a pour on wormer. Her belly seems to be larger than normal and hanging. Not tight and tucked up like normal. Not a real good discription. The area under her hipbones seems sunk in/hollow. She still seems active and alert, just not hungry. I don't know how often she has direaha. I have just seen some "cow pile" shaped poops and her dirty rear. The rest of the goats still have hard bouncy poops.

 

[20kidsonhill]

It sounds to me like you just aren't worming her aggresively enough with the right wormers.

I also do something similar like CM.

why have that not have fecals done on them? did I miss that somewhere in the reading?

I would do fecal on her.

If a fecal isn't available, then I would do safegaurd 5 days in a row at 3x the label dosage,
followed by a stronger wormer once a week for 3 weeks, cydectin or synanthic. Maybe ivermectin if that is all you have.

I would give all wormers orally.

Treat with Penn G twice a day the first couple of days then once a day at the rate of 5cc per 100lbs.


Help settle stomach with daily doses of probiotics, I have been using the powdered goat preferred probiotic from tractor supply.

Again these are things I do, I would highly recommend consulting with a vet and having fecals ran.


we have also been using vitamin b shots, red cell daily while goat is recovering.

 

[cmjust0]

It's entirely possible that she's not been dewormed aggressively enough, but in my experience, scours are more often caused by things like dietary changes, bacterial infection, or coccidia than worms. I usually do two kinds of dewormer to my shotgun approach to cover the possibility of worms, but I also try to cover the bacteria/coccidia possibilities with something like Scour Halt and Dimethox.. Long and short, what I'm saying is that what 20kids says makes sense, and it's a good plan of attack if this is worms, but I'd *definitely* throw some Scour Halt or oral neomycin at her, and some Dimethox (or Sulmet, or SMZ-TMP, or some kind of 'sulfa drug') in case it's *not* worms.....because, again, my experience tells me it's usually not worms that cause a scour.

And while I would never, ever advise that you NOT consult a vet or have them run a fecal exam, what I will say is that I've never personally gotten any value out of the results of a fecal exam.. Maybe your vet is different than my vet, but mine see the presence of worm eggs and coccidia and jump straight to that conclusion, despite the fact that pretty much any goat on pasture is going to have worm eggs and coccidia in its stool under normal, healthy circumstance.. I even once lost a doe to a bacterial gut infection that I stopped in others with a simple round of Scour Halt (oral spectinomycin, an antibiotic) a university diagnostic laboratory's fecal culture came back CLEAN on the dead doe.. They found nothing at all. According to them, anyway..

So, ya...personally, I have zero faith in fecals.

 

[sunny]

There is one thing the above shotgun approach can miss. If you don't use the Valbanzen, choosing the easier to get safeguard, Or you don't get the ivermectin with the "plus" for flukes. You're missing killing liver flukes, which can cause rumen upset, scours, anemia, lethargy, and death. These have been bad in my area this year with a couple different herds I know of losing several goats.
I don't have much faith in fecals either. They are a tool, but they only show the eggs that are being laid. They don't show the encapsulated adults or some of the flukes that can cause illness without ever laying an egg.
I agree that this sounds much like cocci and it can have a hit and miss effect in a herd. Some goats have more resistance to it than others. The nice thing is that you can do a sulfa(I use Albon), the scour halt, and the wormers all at the same time and cover all the bases.
For support I would use vitamin B, Thiamin, bo.se, red cell, and probiotics. I would also offer baking soda until she was eating well again. I would take her off of all grain and just push hay until the scours were resolved.

 

[treeclimber233]

I just went to give my doe with direaha another shot and decided to worm her with the pour on wormer too. When I lifted her chin up I found a very large lump under her jaw. She did not seem like it hurt for me to touch/put some pressure on but I was shocked to find it. What could that be?????

 

[ksalvagno]

If the lump is right on the jaw, then you are either looking at CL or a tooth/jaw bone abscess. I would have the vet look at that. Either way, it needs to be taken care of. Also could be bottle jaw depending on how soft the area is.

 

[SmallFarmGirl]

Hope everything works out !!

 

[honeyb12]

This may be a stupid question..but what is Bo-se? I have read several people recommend this..just not sure what it is or where to get it..and is it something I should have on hand..Also i have injectable Penicillin and it says intramuscular..do u give it in the back leg muscle like u would in a dog? And what would be the dosage for an approx. 60lb goat and how accurate does the dosage need to be?