Prevention of Urinary Calculi

Molly

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What can be done to prevent UC from developing in wethers? I know not to feed grain, but have no idea what ammonium chloride? is used for or where to get it? how to administer?, or Fruit Fresh? what does it do? is it a preventative or emergency aid? I have also read about apple cider vinegar helping? What mineral lick is good for goats? any advice would be helpful. Thanks.
 

20kidsonhill

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Ammonia chloride is very very cheap, it it looks like a coarse salt, I purhaces a couple lbs at the feed store for something like 85 cents. It can also be purchased on-line. More than likely you will get more than you need for a lifetime, but since it is so cheap it isn't a big deal and it keeps like salt would.

fruit Fresh isn't quit as prooven as a preventive or treatment, but technically works in the same way by disolving the stones that build up in the urinary tract.

The same concept of running vinegar(an acid) through you dishwasher or coffee pot. Helps to dissolve the build-up by creating a more acidic invironment.


For ammonia chloride(AC) A preventive dosage given daily would be 1 teaspoon per 150lbs of animal per day.

Treatment dosages are higher.

This website does a good job outlining prevention and treatment of UC.
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/stones.htm


I personally, don't feel feeding a good goat grain is a death sentence for a whether. As long as the grain you are feeding is properly formulated with a 2 to 1 calcium to phosphorus ratio and contains ammonia chloride. Giving you goat just straight corn would not be a good idea. Even just giving some grass hays can cause the phosphorus levels to be too high, resulting in stones.

YOu would want to look for a mineral that has atleast twice as much calcium as phosphorus. If available in your area, Sweetlix, meatmaker is an excellant goat mineral. But there are others that work well.
 

cmjust0

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Molly said:
What can be done to prevent UC from developing in wethers?
In almost all cases, urinary calculi is the result of improper feeding.. Either an improper feed was used (i.e., corn) or the goat was given too much bagged feed. Graze, browse, and hay -- any kind really, even grass* -- should be the primary diet. Bagged feed is supplemental feed -- always remember that. Use it on an as-needed basis.. If your goat is getting along fine on whatever graze/browse/hay you're able to provide, there's no need to supplement.

I know not to feed grain, but have no idea what ammonium chloride? is used for
Urinary calculi in goats is generally a saturation of magnesium, ammonia, and phosphorus in urine that's not acidic enough, leading to the formation of magnesium ammonia phosphate crystals.. Ammonium chloride dissolves these stones by making the urine more acidic.

or where to get it?
You can order it from most goat supply houses, such as Hoegger or Caprine Supply, and you can sometimes find it at feedstores. Your vet's office may be another option.

how to administer?
The ammonium chloride we use for goats is water soluble, so it's simply mixed with water and given orally ('drenched').. The dosage I'd recommend is about 3g/22lbs of goat, 1x/day for about a week.

or Fruit Fresh? what does it do? is it a preventative or emergency aid?
Fruit Fresh may or may not help, depending on who you talk to or what you read. I don't think anybody would choose Fruit Fresh *over* AC, though, so if you make sure to keep AC on hand, the Fruit Fresh thing becomes a moot point. :)

I have also read about apple cider vinegar helping?
Well, ACV is one of those "cure for what ails ya" type of things that some folks swear by for everything from mastitis to urinary calculi to internal parasites.. I don't personally fool with it.

What mineral lick is good for goats?
Loose mineral is far, far superior to 'licks' when it comes to goats, if by 'lick' you mean 'block'.. If you can find a mineral that's made for goats, that's probably going to be your best option.. If not, look for one that contains copper and selenium, but avoid anything that contains 'copper oxide'.. If it contains copper oxide, it's almost certainly junk mineral that won't do your animals any good.. You want copper sulfate, or copper proteinate, or something like that.. The fewer instances of the word 'oxide' you see on the bag label, the better off you'll be.

Generally speaking, you'll save time by picking up the most expensive bag first. Mineral is very much a "you get whatcha pay for" item.

Other than that, **AVOID** anything labeled "Hi-Mag" or "Spring" mineral, as these are designed to help avoid something called "grass staggers" in cattle.. That's another name for a dietary magnesium deficiency, related to grazing early Spring pastures.. As such, hi-mag and Spring mineral mixes will be very, very high in magnesium -- refer back to my earlier explanation of magnesium ammonium phosphate stones..


* - As for grass hay, it's true that it's higher in phosphorus than calcium, but not as much so on a pound-for-pound basis as bagged feed.. Plus, goats are more or less designed for that kind of imbalance when it comes to eating grass/browse/hay.. They use a lot of saliva for those foods -- especially dry hay -- and phosphorus is recycled through saliva.. In other words, yes, they're taking in more phosphorus than calcium on grass hay, but they're using more phosphorus in order to do it.

Long and short, grass hay is pretty safe. Of course, it would be better if you could add some calcium if only so the animal can have a more balanced diet...but I've never heard a single instance of anyone ever having a case of magnesium ammonium phosphate stones in a wether because it was on grass hay.
 

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Thank you so much for the info. I am going to print this off and keep it on hand for reference. :)
 

elevan

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Balancing your Ca: Ph (Calcium: Phosphorus) ratio is important. You want it to be 2:1

I feed my wethers grain during the winter because they eat with the rest of the herd. I make sure the grain (pellets) that I purchase have AC as an ingredient. My mineral mix has AC as an ingredient as well. I also keep AC on hand as a treatment if needed. Some people will also add apple cider vinegar to their goat's water.
 
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cmjust0

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elevan said:
Balancing your Ca: Ph (Calcium: Phosphorus) ratio is important. You want it to be 2:1
I've seen research indicating that it should be a 2.5:1 minimum, but they important thing is that it's *at least* 2:1.. I personally consider it a bare minimum, and that's coming from someone who has dealt with a case of UC in an intact buck who was being fed 2:1 feed w/ added ammonium chloride..


The reasoning behind the 2:1 minimum is that the goat's body will use either calcium or phosphorus, with a sort of "preference" for calcium.. To use them requires that they be absorbed from the GI tract into the bloodstream. If the goat's diet -- and therefore, it's blood -- is short on calcium, it will begin to absorb lots of phosphorus into the bloodstream.. The phosphorus will be used as needed, and the excess will be pulled from the bloodstream by the kidneys and excreted through the urine.. If the urine becomes saturated with phosphorus (and magnesium, and ammonia) and the acidity drops a bit (through a mild/beginning bladder infection, or even a genetic predisposition to neutral or slightly alkaline urine, perhaps), the phosphorus, magnesium, and ammonia will precipitate into crystals and BAM...urinary calculi.

Now, as I mentioned before, the body sort of has a preference for calcium over phosphorus.. To exercise that preference, what happens is that when blood calcium reaches an adequate level, the GI tract basically stops absorbing phosphorus.. Or, excessive amounts of phosphorus, at least.. So, formulating the feed to contain more calcium than phosphorus is really just an attempt to load the blood with calcium in order to stop the GI from absorbing excess phosphorus.. This practice has been found to be very effective at lowering urine phosphorus levels, which dramatically decreases the incidence of urinary calculi..

Having said all that, something else that's important to consider is that calcium is more expensive than phosphorus, and therefore this 'discovery' was probably bad news to feed suppliers, and likely led to some discussion about how much it would cost to feed a goat this way.. That's why I have no doubt, personally, that some thought was given to the price of feed in regard to the discovery, and that meant finding the absolute rock-bottom minimum ratio that would usually work. And that, I think, is where the 2:1 ratio came from.

Like I said, I've read other research which indicates that a better ratio would be 2.5:1 -- but I still believe that's just a suggestion for a new rock-bottom minimum.. Personally...well, I felt *a lot* more comfortable when I was mixing 16% 2:1 goat grain about 50:50 with 17% alfalfa pellets, which are about 6:1 Ca: P.. The final ratio of that concoction was about 4:1, if I recall correctly..

That's what I fed my UC buck during his recovery and while he was growing, and he's still kickin around out there right now..
 

elevan

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I do mix in alfalfa pellets! Brain just didn't click in that they add extra calcium. Thanks for the input cm :D
 

esbee

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I put down one of my 8 month old nubian bucks yesterday because of UC . He has been eating Purina Noble Goat that has ammonia chloride. He was also browsing/grazing and had grass hay. His pen mate - another 8 month old nubian buck - had the same diet. They also had free choice loose Techmaster minerals. Patrick had UC, Magnus did not. I tried drenching Patrick with AC but I'm not sure much of it went in. He was in severe pain and I went ahead and put him down. :( A friend with angora goat says she uses a product called methigel. It is for dogs/cats. She had a line of angoras that were chronic UC. I'll have to check into methigel.
 

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Sorry to hear that.. :( And, for what it's worth, ammonium chloride isn't a surefire cure for UC anyway; it's actually just this side of a hail-Mary, once UC actually becomes a problem.. As for why one goat may develop UC while another on the same diet does not, there are any number of reasons why that could be. Perhaps Patrick was developing a urinary tract infection which made his urine less acidic.. Perhaps his own genetic metabolic disposition was for less-acidic pH, normally.. Perhaps his urethra was of a smaller diameter than the other buck.. If they were sharing the bagged feed ration, perhaps he was just a bit more aggressive about snarfing it down and got more of it than his penmate.. Who knows.. The point is that, sometimes, it just happens, and they can't always be saved. You tried, though, and when it became obvious that it was a losing battle and he was in a lot of pain, you put your own feelings aside long enough to end Patrick's suffering. I *know* how hard that can be.. Just know that your effort -- and in the end, your compassion -- counts for a lot.

Again...really sorry you had to go through that. :hugs
 

cmjust0

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I'm thinking this may be a good thread to re-iterate a treatment that worked for me, and has since worked for at least two others that I shared it with. I'm going to just list out 'steps,' as it were, for the sake of brevity (which isn't normally one of my stronger suits).

1) Clip the pizzle. It's the little curly-Q that hangs of the tip of the weenis. I'd suggest a sharp knife, but keep in mind that if you couldn't clip off whatever you're *thinking* is the pizzle with a pair of toenail clippers, you're looking at the wrong thing.

2) Acepromazine, injected. You'll have to consult a vet to get it anyway, so get the dose from them. Used in this case to relax the spasming muscles of the sigmoid flexure. I *personally witnessed* my own almost-totally-blocked UC buck let loose and pee like a racehorse about 2min after a dose of Acepromazine, as his apparent UC blockage at that time was really just that his sigmoid flexure was spasming.

3) Ammonium chloride, drench @ 3g/22lbs of goat, 1x/day for a week.

4) Dexamethasone, 1ml/20lbs of goat, IM, 1x/day for at least a week, then tapered-down dosage for several days after that. Long-acting anti-inflammatory. The urethra very often becomes extremely irritated on account of the goat passing sharp crystals through the urine, and will actually swell shut. Dexamethasone (and banamine, below) will help avoid/treat that problem. MUCH better to *avoid* it, though, which means giving Dexamethasone right away..

5) Banamine, 1ml/100lbs. I give it IM, but SQ will work. Pain relief, but perhaps more importantly is that it's a fast-acting anti-inflammatory.

6) PenG -- 1ml/15lbs of goat, 2x/day through an 18 or 20ga needle, for the duration of the Dex treatment.


So basically, there ya go. When you realize your buck or wether has UC, ideally you'd want to have all of the above done within just a few minutes. If you lack the meds, do as much of it as you can and consult a vet ASAFP and *demand* that they give you Dex, Banamine, and Acepromazine.. If they don't understand why -- I've known this to happen -- explain it as best you can, but ultimately you may have to simply DEMAND it.. Most vets at that point just kinda go..."well, whatever"...and give you what you think you need, provided they don't think it will necessarily *hurt* anything..

Another thing -- DO NOT allow your veterinarian to attempt to run a catheter through the goat's urethra into its bladder. The male goat has a hairpin bend in his urethra which *will* prevent any attempt to reach the bladder, and in all likelihood, the vet will try and try and try before giving up, which will only lead to more and more irritation and potential swelling of the urethra. It's simply not worth the wasted effort.
 
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