Questions about raising bummer lambs

[Goat Whisperer]

Curious why you don't want to band anything? In 15 years of banding tails and testicles, we have not (so far) had any issues related to banding. I've banded hundreds of lambs over the years and I always do it with the first 72 hours. The first 24 are ideal and the lambs show fewer signs of pain/stress. All of them, regardless of when they are banded, recover quickly, usually within 30 minutes.

I know many folks who say they don't have issues, and I do believe them but I really don't like the thought of banding. Tissue rotting off gives me the creeps. We cut and pull with no sedation (unless they are older). It sounds silly I know, but I would rather have my finger cut off quickly then a band that takes longer. I have no issues with other people that do it, it really is the most inexpensive way to castrate and when you have 50 sheep lambing you need to do what is best for your farm.

With the tails I am nervous about causing other issues. I have seen some awful banding-gone-wrong posts on here

 

[Goat Whisperer]

Thanks for the info BTW!

 

[norseofcourse]

I know many folks who say they don't have issues, and I do believe them but I really don't like the thought of banding. Tissue rotting off gives me the creeps.

I wasn't keen on banding, for that and other reasons. After 2 years of having a vet surgically castrate ($$$), I bought an emasculatome (side crusher) from Premier1 and did it myself this year. At about 6 to 8 weeks, a friend held each ram lamb and I wethered them. I'd also read about the technique on Fias Co farm's website. I got some pain meds from the vet and gave each lamb some about an hour before, and only one even made a sound. They were back to normal in minutes.

I am glad to have a breed that you don't have to dock tails, I would not like that at all. I understand that docking is not typically done on katahdin sheep, either, so you may not have to.

 

[Ridgetop]

We have banded our sheep for 20 years years to dock and castrate. We give tetanus antitoxin 1 ml when we do tails because we do them in the first week. We give 2ml CDT then too and by the time we are ready to band testes, their immunity has kicked in. We have had no issues at all or complications. When castrating it is important to make sure you don't catch the urethra in the band. We check before and after applying the band and we think if there is a problem with placement we remove the band and reband. We stopped banding our auction meat bucklings years ago because our ethnic buyers wanted intact buck kids to BBQ. Easier and cheaper for us and more $$ from the buyers. We sold them at 2 - 3 months old. We wether our lambs because we sell them at 6-8 months to our freezer lamb customers. The tetanus antitoxin vaccine is the trick when banding (or cutting) tails or testes. It gives immediate protection while CDT takes a week or so to build the immunities.

GoatWhisperer: With all that milk have you thought of raising a dairy bull calf for "veal" or baby beef? Or even for $$$. We milked over a dozen does am and pm because we were on test and used to raise 3 newborn bull calves at a time. (No home milk sales allowed in California.) If you can find a dairy who will give them colostrum (we had a 4-H friend who owned a dairy) that is best. The dairyman wants them gone asap so right after they are born and have had their colostrum you pick them up. They thrive on 1 gal am and 1 gal pm of goat milk. Watch for scours and treat with paste electrolytes and gut bacteria paste from the feed store (horse stuff is fine). If you keep extra colostrum in your freezer (I heat treated all mine and froze it for the following year. I labeled it according to 1st milking, 2nd milking, etc. I gave the calves the 2nd and 3rd milking if they didn't get any colostrum and it seemed to do the trick.) Anyway, if they are going to be veal, just increase the milk until they are 3 mos old and then into the freezer. If you are going to sell them get 3 because they will bring more money in lots, keep them on 2 gal a day but add some grain and (the best part) the spilled or stalky hay your goats will not eat. At 2 months send them to the cattle auction. I got Angus prices for my Holstein calves because they were fat, clean and shiny. If you are raising a veal for meat, you will not be able to raise as many because by butchering time he will be drinking upwards of 6 or more gals of milk. If you decide to convert your calf into baby beef (12 months old butchering date)have the vet cut him PLEASE.

 

[goatgurl]

Goat Whisperer, I've been raising bummer lambs off and on for years on plain ole' goats milk and they do just fine. all of the bummers were wool sheep and they normally have their tails docked to prevent problems but if you are going to butcher them at a few months of age it shouldn't be a big deal. i also only fed them twice a day unless one was weak or something and needed the extra. i worked them up from 8 oz to 32 ozs a feeding. i went to the grocery store a few years ago to get a leg of lamb for easter and they wanted $64. for one leg and i thought dang i could get a whole lamb for about that and went out and bought 2 ewes and a ram to start my own leg of lamb factory. the katahdins meat is very flavorful and tender. i have raised a small herd of katahdins for the last four years and normally their tails don't need docked. it felt weird to me not to dock them, old school ya know, but i have had no problems with them from not docking. i do castrate the ram lambs but never dock them. and the others are right, the katahdins are quite personable and i am able to work them as needed. in the past four years I've never had to worm them or trim feet, they are quite hardy. as far as grain goes i put one 3 qt. scoop of feed out for 8 sheep every couple of days so in reality if they have good pasture that and hay in the winter that is all they need. i run my sheep and goats all together in about 60 acres of pasture and woods and have never had a problem with them being together. i feed them grain separately but eat hay all together. and Ridgetop is right, it's easy to raise calves on goats milk too. the price of bottle calves is thru the roof right now but you can usually find jersey bull calves for a couple hundred $ and can sell them for a whole lot more when they are weaned. good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[Ridgetop]

You won't need heat lamps unless it is super cold. I used heat lamps for newborn dairy goat kids but not with the lambs. I use shop lights with reflectors, but use 100 watt bulbs instead of heat lamp bulbs and it is enough. California can get really cold when a cold front comes down from the north or it is really windy.

Since you want the lambs to start eating hay as soon as possible, I think a quart am and pm would be enough. Lambs grow faster and bigger than dairy goat kids but I am not sure about Katahdins which I hear are smaller boned sheep. You butcher between 6 - 8 months, or about 75 to 100 lbs depending on breed. We have kept lambs to 1 year without a problem if you want larger chops, etc. Sheep are pasture animals so although they will forage, it depends on the quality of forage you have. When the weeds and brush are thick we don't feed any hay, but do give a small grain ration in the barn at night. Mostly this is to encourage them to come inside since we like to keep them in the barn at night. It gives a little help to our LGD since she is their only protection and we have active predators. It also gives us a chance to check on their health and condition every day since we are very steep here and they are usually out of sight when on the pastures.

If you have raised goat kids, you won't have any trouble with your bummer lambs. CDT just like your meat goats. You can put the lambs with the kids you are raising. The main reason people segregate sheep and goats is that sheep can get abcesses from shearing and foxtails working their way into the wool, which a lot of people mistake for CL. Since Katahdins are hair sheep that shouldn't be a problem. You can also ask if the breeder vaccinates for CL.

 

[babsbag]

@Ridgetop Did you raise some the calves for yourself? I have toyed with idea many a time but always figured I needed to raise it to 18 months at least and being that we have ZERO pasture grass just never went down that road.

I have a source for Jersey bulls for $4.00 (or maybe free). I know they are pretty lanky but do you think they would be worth raising?

Hope I have NO extra milk next year, that would be ideal with a dairy, right? But you never know.

 

[goatgurl]

@babsbag if you have a surplus of milk then raising calves is the easiest way to go. a small pen, some hay, a water bucket and bucket feeding the milk twice a day is how i did it before. the cheapest I've seen 3-5 day old jerseys around here is $150. and saw a 4 1/2 month old weaned jersey bull on craigslist selling for $1,000. insane. i was just talking to ds#1 about this last night and i think i may see how it goes next spring.

 

[OneFineAcre]

@babsbag if you have a surplus of milk then raising calves is the easiest way to go. a small pen, some hay, a water bucket and bucket feeding the milk twice a day is how i did it before. the cheapest I've seen 3-5 day old jerseys around here is $150. and saw a 4 1/2 month old weaned jersey bull on craigslist selling for $1,000. insane. i was just talking to ds#1 about this last night and i think i may see how it goes next spring.

Beef prices are really high right now
My hay man got got 9 Holstein bull calves early spring and was feeding replacer ( they are steers now )
Last time I asked him they were weaned
Next time I get hay need to ask what they weigh

 

[Ridgetop]

Topic here is bummer lambs. And maybe bottle calves.

I have raised calves for my freezer as veal but if raising them for myself to any age past 3 mos. would absolutely steer them. I don't trust bulls and don't like to take chances with them even as babies. Also, the younger you can castrate, the easier and cheaper it will be. I would definitely raise Jersey calves if you can get them free or $4.00 each. Can't beat that price! Try to get the dairyman to let them have colostrum. He can't sell milk with colostrum so might be willing to let the calf nurse for 24 hours. Maybe offer $10.00 for the calf if it nurses 24 hours? Jerseys are smaller boned, so while they look lankier than Holsteins, you can put more meat on them with the same amount of milk. If you want to raise them for sale at the auction, they sell better and higher as a lot of at least 3 the same age together. Check what a 3 to 6 mos. Jersey bull or steer calf would bring at the local auction. I used to raise 3 at a time on 2 gal. milk daily each and when they turned a month they were also getting the waste hay from my dairy does. A little grain, not much, to polish them up and you will have a really nice lot of 2 month old calves to send through the cattle sale yard. Because you are raising just 3 and giving them that nice rich goat milk, they will be fat, shiny and clean. You should get top price for the lot of three. My auction yard owner told me not to hold them any linger than 2 months because they sell for more $$ at that age in ratio to what you put into them. If you check with the local sale yard, they can tell you what age sells best.

If you are going to raise a calf for yourself, you do it the same way EXCEPT if you want veal (totally milk fed) you increase the milk as it needs it and butcher at 3 months. By then you might be feeding 4 gals. daily. You can't really keep a veal any longer without health problems because by feeding ONLY milk, the rumen, etc. doesn't develop. The milk stomach can't support a calf longer than 3 mos. If you want baby beef, then you do it the same way you do the calves for sale, offer waste hay to encourage the rumen, etc. to develop. You can feed some grain before butchering to put on some marbling. How long you keep the baby beef is up to you but definitely castrate the calf.

Since you said you don't have any pasture, I think your best bet is to raise calves for the sale yard at 2 months, and a calf for yourself to butcher at 3-4 mos. You can give all of them the waste hay, but I wouldn't bother keeping the calf for yourself past 3 months because without pasture it will be too expensive to raise a steer. (We don't have any pasture either.) Also, if you are planning to raise the steer to 18 mos. (beef butcher age) you will have to get the vet to castrate it, put a magnet in its stomach, get vaccinations, etc. Much easier and cheaper to raise several 3 mos. calves for the freezer one after the other with all your surplus milk. You will be able to raise several calves at a time since they only drink 2 gal. day (you can give them more) and the wasted hay from the goat feeders and pen. Cattle will eat all that stemmy hay that the girls turn up their noses at! LOL

If you have anyone that wants a veal calf (they are increasingly hard to find - not PC) here the local FFA is charging and getting $10/lb. for veal calves, live weight. You can offer your buyers to drop their calf off at the butcher when you take yours (for a minimal charge). I only sold my calves at the sale yard in lots, but it sure made a big dent in the hay bill. Do your homework with the local cattle auction first. You should do very well with getting Jersey bull calves so cheap. If the dairy uses Angus bulls on their first fresheners, you should definitely take them, but Jersy calves with their fine bones should put on meat fine.