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rachels.haven

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Yeah, he probably would have benefitted from not getting covid. Over active immune systems appear to run in the family. I guess it would be a reaction to antibodies since both the vaccines and the virus got the same response?
 

Ridgetop

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Do you have a guardian dog now? How are your fences?

If the breeder insists you take 2 puppies will your current LGD (if any) help train them? If your fences are not good, you need to be careful taking puppies. They learn bad habits fast and with 75%Pyrenees, they will learn to roam. Pyrs are known for that, as well as for their ability to get out of just about any fencing.

One reason Pyrs roam is their guarding style. These are dogs that for thousands of years guarded a transhumance type of grazing. The shepherds would move the flocks from winter grazing in the warmer valleys up into the mountains for spring and summer pastures. Because these dogs had immense ranges to cover as the shepherds and flocks travelled, they were gradually selected for a guarding pattern that worked in the outside of the flock to protect from attack as they moved. Once at the pastures they would clear all predators from the perimeter area. They set their own perimeter within which they protect everything. Their perimeter is seldom your fenced borders. Pyrs do not want any predators within the "safety net" they decide on. For our 1.5, then 6, acres it was the entire
100 open acres behind and around our property! We loved our Pyrs, but the roaming outside the fenced acreage was very worrying.

Our first Pyr we bought from a Basque shepherd in Bakersfield who had bred and raised Pyrs for years. He would take his flock of Rambouillets into the mountains every spring after shearing. He would stay up there with the flock of about 1000 head counting their lambs, 3 other Basque shepherds, about 10 Pyrs, and his caravan until fall sent him back to his ranch in Bakersfield. The lambs were sold for meat. We bought 2 subsequent Pyrs. Our last 2 were descendants of that first dog.

One of our Pyrs would leave the yard at night and be back inside the fence in the morning. We were congratulating ourselves on finally having a Pyr that did not roam when he got hit by a car 2 miles from the house. The police officers, who called us after reading his microchip at 2 am, said that they routinely saw him down on that road every night apparently patrolling his territory. His sister could not be kept inside the fences either. After getting calls from several miles away on a bi-weekly basis we rehomed her to a 1000 cattle ranch. Three years later I got a call that she had been found wandering. :mad: The new owner had not bothered to update the microchip information. Some Pyrs tend to stay closer to the flock than others. Also you will find that during lambing your LGD will stick close to the barn until the smell of afterbirth is gone.

Our Pyrs were wonderful guardians, great with our friends and children, but not being able to keep them inside the fences was very stressful. Since we no longer have 4-H children, we switched to Anatolians. Anatolians are not for everyone, and particularly if yuo do not have good fences. Our male is very suspicious of strangers. His temperament is more aggressive, closer to the original Anatolian temperament. Our bitches are more discerning and will allow strangers on the property if we are with them. Because I fear lawsuits, I insist on putting the dogs, or at least Bubba, in the barn or the kennel when strangers or workmen are around.

Other breeds will guard in different ways. Dogs from backgrounds where the shepherds took the flocks out at dawn and returned to the village at night will tend to remain closer to the flock. It also depends on the individual dog. Like people each dog is different and has a slightly different inclination to guarding.

If there are a lot of dogs available, you can afford to be choosier in selecting your puppy. Is there a possibility you can get an older, partially trained dog? One good thing about littermates is that they will play with each other. Pyr littermates will accept same age dogs of the same sex which Anatolians will not. If you have a problem with coyotes and stray dogs, it might be worthwhile to take the second puppy as a gift and train them both.
 

rachels.haven

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Do you have a guardian dog now? How are your fences?

If the breeder insists you take 2 puppies will your current LGD (if any) help train them? If your fences are not good, you need to be careful taking puppies. They learn bad habits fast and with 75%Pyrenees, they will learn to roam. Pyrs are known for that, as well as for their ability to get out of just about any fencing.

One reason Pyrs roam is their guarding style. These are dogs that for thousands of years guarded a transhumance type of grazing. The shepherds would move the flocks from winter grazing in the warmer valleys up into the mountains for spring and summer pastures. Because these dogs had immense ranges to cover as the shepherds and flocks travelled, they were gradually selected for a guarding pattern that worked in the outside of the flock to protect from attack as they moved. Once at the pastures they would clear all predators from the perimeter area. They set their own perimeter within which they protect everything. Their perimeter is seldom your fenced borders. Pyrs do not want any predators within the "safety net" they decide on. For our 1.5, then 6, acres it was the entire
100 open acres behind and around our property! We loved our Pyrs, but the roaming outside the fenced acreage was very worrying.

Our first Pyr we bought from a Basque shepherd in Bakersfield who had bred and raised Pyrs for years. He would take his flock of Rambouillets into the mountains every spring after shearing. He would stay up there with the flock of about 1000 head counting their lambs, 3 other Basque shepherds, about 10 Pyrs, and his caravan until fall sent him back to his ranch in Bakersfield. The lambs were sold for meat. We bought 2 subsequent Pyrs. Our last 2 were descendants of that first dog.

One of our Pyrs would leave the yard at night and be back inside the fence in the morning. We were congratulating ourselves on finally having a Pyr that did not roam when he got hit by a car 2 miles from the house. The police officers, who called us after reading his microchip at 2 am, said that they routinely saw him down on that road every night apparently patrolling his territory. His sister could not be kept inside the fences either. After getting calls from several miles away on a bi-weekly basis we rehomed her to a 1000 cattle ranch. Three years later I got a call that she had been found wandering. :mad: The new owner had not bothered to update the microchip information. Some Pyrs tend to stay closer to the flock than others. Also you will find that during lambing your LGD will stick close to the barn until the smell of afterbirth is gone.

Our Pyrs were wonderful guardians, great with our friends and children, but not being able to keep them inside the fences was very stressful. Since we no longer have 4-H children, we switched to Anatolians. Anatolians are not for everyone, and particularly if yuo do not have good fences. Our male is very suspicious of strangers. His temperament is more aggressive, closer to the original Anatolian temperament. Our bitches are more discerning and will allow strangers on the property if we are with them. Because I fear lawsuits, I insist on putting the dogs, or at least Bubba, in the barn or the kennel when strangers or workmen are around.

Other breeds will guard in different ways. Dogs from backgrounds where the shepherds took the flocks out at dawn and returned to the village at night will tend to remain closer to the flock. It also depends on the individual dog. Like people each dog is different and has a slightly different inclination to guarding.

If there are a lot of dogs available, you can afford to be choosier in selecting your puppy. Is there a possibility you can get an older, partially trained dog? One good thing about littermates is that they will play with each other. Pyr littermates will accept same age dogs of the same sex which Anatolians will not. If you have a problem with coyotes and stray dogs, it might be worthwhile to take the second puppy as a gift and train them both.
Our entire property is very sturdy field fence with 1 or two strands of barbed wire on the bottom depending on the roll of the land, and one on top. The pasture is also fenced off from the yard yard. This fence does not stop pit bulls, apparently. They act like it is not there. Come spring I will start work on running a hot wire around the top and middle for the goats. Then we'll let the goats out of the barn pens.

We have one LGD, and she is a pyr but does not roam ( knock on wood). She is either with the goats or occasionally on the porch if the pasture gate is left open. She likes to take a subordinate position in packs though, and if threats come she bands the animals (or my kids) together and stuffs them in a corner and stands between the threat and what she is guarding. She does not really patrol-maybe once a night, and she does not appear to go far. She stays with the goats. I worry the 2 puppies would be come pack bosses and lead HER in to mischief.

I am going to push hard for just one puppy. That way we won't have a little naughty pack and heaps of trouble.

I've been watching and the only adults that have become available either attack stock or go through fences and roam. Sometimes there are pyr mix with pits, lab, mastiff that people have been using, a few available with a herd dispersal, but the lab (usually lab) part scares me.

Very little Anatolian blood out there. Oddly enough, it's 99% pyr or pyr-pet mix. Someone is even breeding pyrs to poodles and claiming they are livestock guardians. That's not my problem, but boy is it ever going to be one.
 

rachels.haven

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*editing because I am trying to make sense while up late and on a cracked phone with a mind of its own
I'm picking this herd to get puppies from because of the Anatolian in them and because upon talking to them the breeder appears to know and understand their dogs, their goats, them, and the relationship between the three groups. And they are honest about things, like they made a point of telling me at the beginning that they could be pets, but they live outside in a bar with goats.
 

rachels.haven

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*that would be "barn". No bar hopping puppies. Time to get off before something else autocorrects wrong.
Basically, if I want an adult it either has to be a troubled/failed pyr or a pet cross. People don't part with their good LGD'S. And apparently they strongly prefer pyrs. Driving around I've seen so many great Pyrenees and zero any other kind of livestock guardian. I wonder why?
 

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That is ok. Anatolians are not for everybody. Pyrs are sweet tempered and since your children are young and will be having friends over to play with the lambs as time goes by Pyr temperament will be the best for you.

Definitely do not get any mixed breeds that are not both LGDs. And make sure that both parents are with livestock.

You can always add smaller opening wire on the existing fences. You can also attach taller posts to the fence posts you have if they are securely in the ground. Then you can attach another roll of wire on to the taller posts to raise the height of your fences. Hot wire is probably the cheapest way to go but you need to make sure that the wire stays charged.

You have a handle on everything. Get the calmest puppy in the litter and let your adult LGD help train it. Herding the animals into a corner then getting between them and danger is excellent LGD behavior. It is seen when the guardian thinks it cannot take on the predators without backup. If our dog is young or there is a heavy predator load, this is exceptionally good behavior.
 

rachels.haven

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They are one half Anatolian, my bad. And they are very timid which is why she thought they would be best sent home together. Last of the large litter and least confident. And they are over 50 lbs at 15 weeks. They are going to need some gentle taming work. Being able to see the goats makes them a little less timid. These puppies like to sit/lay there and watch. If they can grow up and all they have the confidence to do is to be penned with the goats at night to keep things out of the pen in the dark and sit and watch the field by day that would be enough. I don't need terrifying guard dogs. Timid can be fine.


Bailey does not tolerate any crap from these two, no excessive face sniffing, no getting near the goats, no sharing space. Currently they are penned alone between the bucks and the does so they can see and watch both groups and Bailey but no one can beat up on anyone else. Time for a new adventure? (Might need to split them up at some point, I can tell)
PXL_20220113_185019895.MP.jpg
 

Ridgetop

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So you fell for the "get two and they will be company for each other" ploy. HaHaHa Actually, if they are more Pyr in temperament they might get along with each other when they mature. If not, remember that trained adult guardians are valuable, and you will have no problem selling one of them. Just be sure to have your bitch spayed or there will be trouble.

LGD puppies are timid seeming up to a certain age when they are big enough to defend themselves. In the meantime, they will try other behaviors to decoy predators away from the flock. One of these is the "play away" behavior where a young dog that is faced with several predators or a large predator will try to decoy the predator away from the flock. Once they have it far enough from the flock to no longer be a threat they will sit and watch until it goes away. This is more usually with stray dogs. Another trick when they are unsure about their ability to protect the herd is to round up the flock and put them in a safe and easy to defend spot, then keep them there while they guard the only approach.

LGDs are complicated thinkers with an uncanny ability to work out problems. Of course, along with this intelligence comes an innate belief that you are also in need of their protection. :lol:

Have fun with them.
 

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