ram handling and body-language Qs

[patandchickens]

Hi, me again, sorry

So Jose (yearling shetland ram) is really a lot more gentlemanly than I would have expected of a ram (I know nothing about sheep though), BUT, he is clearly a ram and all that. He has bopped an empty water bucket with his head when he was annoyed at me for not feeding him (got the other *non-empty* bucket dumped on him, hasn't done it since) and he whomps into the fence and pen divider with his head when he feels he should be part of what the girls are doing on the other side e.g. being grained.

I know you're not supposed to pet/touch/shove them on the top of the head, I've got that.

But, what ARE you supposed to do with a ram?

1) is it ok to put a hand on his chest to hold him back a moment, or will that encourage him to get into pushing-or-butting mode?

2) he seems to really love having me stroke the underside of his chin/jaw/neck. Sometimes when I am doing this he relaxes so his head is resting softly in the palm of my hand. Is this ok for me to be doing, or is some sort of bad behavior apt to develop from it?

3) How do I move him where I want? He is EXTREMELY food-motivated, to the point where I am reluctant to use a feed bucket to lead him where I want him to go because I do not want to reinforce him mugging me for snacks. But OTOH i don't want him to feel I am chasing/shooing him either and see me as an adversary or threat. He will back off a little if I put my head down at him but I am pretty sure THAT's not a good idea. So I don't know what's appropriate, in terms of tactics and body language. What are you supposed to do, to get a ram to go where you want him to (he is alone in his pen/paddock, adjacent to the other sheeps'; I need to put him in the roofed pen at night, b/c am not convinced my fence is coyoteproof yet)

4) knowing how much horses are affected by handler position and body language, I would think sheep would be to some extent to, but I do not speak sheep. Anyone want to give me some basic tips here, aside from "if you approach too close they run away" which I have already figured out thanks ?

Any and all input much appreciated,

Pat

 

[aggieterpkatie]

Petting him under the head is usually ok. Some people say don't touch the head at all, but eh. To each their own. It's mainly the petting on top of the head that causes issues. Or you can scratch his back if you want, if he likes that.

As far as moving them, I just lead rams using grain like the rest of the sheep, but I tend to hold the bucket to the side so if they do decide to target something it's not near me.

I don't think sheep are nearly as sensitive to body language as horses. Sheep definitely react to flight zones and stuff. Also, you can use your voice as a deterrent if he's doing something jerky.

 

[Beekissed]

From what I've read and noticed with herding my own gals, the shoulder is the point of balance for sheep, just like horses.

As for rams...I'm still figuring that one out. This loaner ram I have is not flighty like my girls and he invades my personal space. He likes being scratched but will mug me when food is present or if he even THINKS food is present.....head right up against my rear, which makes me nervous to say the least! :/

I'm having some success with a long, white fiberglass rod...he seems to respect this stick. I just touch him along the flanks with it and he moves away...and its a very light touch, so maybe those shepherd crooks aren't just for catching, huh?

I'll tell you another thing he just does not like and will move away to avoid....if I tug on his ear when he gets too close. I don't know if that is typical for all rams, so I figure its a learn as you go sort of thing.

I've tried the whole water in the face thingy and it only works until they shake the water off their face...then its right back in your space again! Now, my girls would learn from that, but this guy sheep is an idiot!!

 

[big brown horse]

Glad you posted this Pat! (Does your ram have horns? Just curoius.)




ETA: Nevermind, I just saw his horns in your pics!

 

[patandchickens]

Yup, he do, beautiful ones and going to be SO handsome in another year or so once they curl all the way around , and so does the wethered lamb.

Pat

 

[genuck]

I'd like to add some questions to this. I have two rams. A yearling shetland x coopworth and a weanling shetland, Walter. The yearling I've never had any problem with. He's not skittish but moves away when I shoo him, he will walk in front of me and try to make me stop when I have food. He is into smelling the girls and making the flehmen face. I've never seen him breed any of them but I did get a lamb this spring from the one ewe I had last fall. I scratch him on the back and under the chin sometimes, he really enjoys it and when I am done goes back to grazing. Am I asking for trouble? He is going to the freezer once Walter matures.

Now Walter, is very friendly and unafraid of people. Even with hardly any handling he is like this. He comes and stands by me, I can't help but rub him under the chin and give him some scratches. I've been warned and have seen the warnings, I'm pretty paranoid about handling my ram lamb. I don't want him to be mean or dangerous. Is there any training I can do to give him manners, like show training? I mean a ram has to be handled and 'tame' to go in the ring right? I just hate turning a cold shoulder to him when he just want's to 'hang out'

When I lead any of my rams it's by the horns, they just make such great handles and 'steering wheels' Any opinions on that? My lamb is sorta halter trained and the ram is sorta collar trained.

 

[Ms. Research]

Now Walter, is very friendly and unafraid of people. Even with hardly any handling he is like this. He comes and stands by me, I can't help but rub him under the chin and give him some scratches. I've been warned and have seen the warnings, I'm pretty paranoid about handling my ram lamb. I don't want him to be mean or dangerous. Is there any training I can do to give him manners, like show training? I mean a ram has to be handled and 'tame' to go in the ring right? I just hate turning a cold shoulder to him when he just want's to 'hang out'

When I lead any of my rams it's by the horns, they just make such great handles and 'steering wheels' Any opinions on that? My lamb is sorta halter trained and the ram is sorta collar trained.

I think that's an excellent idea. And would be interested to hear if "training" could help manage a ram, plus be able to have some kind of bond. Hope someone will help alleviate your paranoia so that you and Walter can start a "safe" relationship.

If "freezer camp" is close at hand for your other ram, I would continue the scratch under the chin. Why change now with him? Seems like he knows who's the Boss, and respects you in his way.

Just my opinion.

 

[aggieterpkatie]

Well, show training (which is just teaching them to lead and stand) is about the same as just petting them and making them not afraid of people. I don't really think it will do anything to prevent him from being rude. Some rams are more calm than others, but all rams can be jerks if they want to or decide to.

And I very much dislike horned animals, that's just my opinion. Every horned animal I've dealt with HATED their horns being touched, and would jerk away if someone bothered their horns. Many people say they use the horns as handles, but I personally think it would make the animals head shy and defensive. That's just me though.

 

[goodhors]

I would agree that using horns as handles, on a ram is asking for trouble. Horns are for hitting things with. Would you like someone to come along and grab your ear, which is attached to YOUR head? Maybe you could just keep a sheep lead in your pocket or hanging in a handy place to grab, if you need to do things with the ram.

I would think your handling young ram like a show sheep, doing a little leading and setting up practice daily, will only make him better behaved, easier to handle later, in his daily life. You appear to plan to show him, so best have your show routine going while he is young. Just being handled daily makes a HUGE difference in how well a lamb or sheep behave later on. Have you ever shown sheep? You can't use a halter in the ring. Only small children or folks who have never shown sheep go to the ring with a halter on the animal. You are marked as a "newcomer" by the halter in the ring. Sheep or lamb must move forward smoothly as you hold the head to lead him. You need to learn the "sheep grip" for correct control. He must allow legs to be placed, "brace" pushing his chest against your leg while the Judge inspects his body and wool in breed classes. Ram is not allowed to behave badly in a ring with other rams present. You have to work with the animal often at home, to develop the smoothness of a working relationship in the ring.

My understanding of ram handling is NOT to rub or scratch the top of the skull. This is the horns, horn base area, between the eyes and down the front of face. Supposedly rubbing and scratcing this area stimulates the fight reaction in a ram, both sheep and goats. Cheeks and under side of skull/head is fine for scratching, not a place rams hit when they fight, so not fight stimulating. And horn handling, holding, pulling, would be fight stimulating, horns are defense and offense weapons. Animal was always VERY resistant when I see them being dragged about by their horns, even when horn handling was common at that farm. Some fought like tigers with horns grabbed! WAY easier to slip a halter on or lead with a collar.

I agree that horns can be dangerous on any livestock. Bad enough getting hit with a hornless skull. Adding in horns is dangerous. Nothing here with horns. If I purchased an animal owning horns, they would be removed shortly. Male animals used for breeding are extremely unpredictable, sure don't need horn weapons to add to that problem. You may want to read some of the older posts on rams, how folks have been hurt with being butted. Some severely. A number of folks on here won't enter the ram pens at all. Even small rams can hurt you, so horns should be removed for YOUR safety.

 

[genuck]

Yeah they get pretty ticked by the horn handle lol. The older one at least was never halter trained, when I tried it he umped around like a deer and even now has a tendancy to bolt. Got myself some bad rope burn the other day when he went east and I went west (my fault really I was talking and not paying attention) They are both Shetlands, so removing the horns isn't really an option.

I hadn't really thought about showing the younger one. I just figure an animal that's trained to behave and stand on command would be a lot easier to handle/reprimand/bring back to earth if he started acting randy. That's been my experience with stallions, after handling them it's a little hard to imagine my tiny sheep hurting me. But I also realize he's knee high and I'd get run under in a heartbeat.

Thanks for the advice and I'll let you know how it goes, my neice showed lambs in 4-H so hopefully can give me some tips.

As for the older one, he's in love with being rubbed on now. He comes over and stops with his shoulder to me then flaps his lips when I scratch him. The butt gets him dancing, guess I'll let him enjoy it til he goes to camp.