Rescue LGD persnickety...

[Bruce]

I know I sound naive but I really am trying to do whatever to train him and make life good for him & the chickens.

Not at all, everyone starts at square 1!!

I already added my location to my profile; Southern Il.

Didn't work. When it does it will show up in the data under your userid on the left. It goes in the "Personal Details" tab of your profile.

LGDs, and some breeds more than others, see their territory as anything they can see. And of course the farther they move from the barn, the more they can see and thus the more they have to guard. When people talk about their LGDs guarding the perimeter, they mean the inside of the perimeter fence (of whatever enclosure you have defined for them), not some arbitrary invisible line demarcated by a surveyor that you teach the dog and it respects.

So yes, you need to fence him in. That fence can also be the first line of defense keeping predators out. You said you have 1.5 acres fenced now. What is that fence? You can get by with a 4' field fence topped with hot wire so he won't climb over. Some have done it with pure electric but that isn't a good option with chickens. Also note that LGDs can be "trained" to guard poultry but it isn't their natural "herd animal" to guard. Your dog is young, most likely he will want to chase squawky chickens that are running (in a panic from the dog or for other reasons because they ARE chickens after all). Expect to spend a lot of time with training him to chickens, and sadly as I understand it, plan to lose a few in the process.

But ... the dog will guard his territory (young for that yet) and if the chickens are inside a fenced area that is inside a larger perimeter fence, they will be guarded (other than agains avian threats) even he doesn't go inside their area.

 

[Latestarter]

I personally applaud the fact that you are approaching this with an open mind and willingness to do right by the dog. Those of us with LGDs can attest to the love bond that will grow between you over time if you grow together properly! There is NOTHING like an LGD in the dog world... They are special and unique. They are independent thinkers and will only work with you, not for you. You have to form a partnership with the dog and build trust both ways. Initially, he will need boundaries. It will take time for him to learn what you expect of him and learn to trust you as you learn to trust him. I would suggest a minimum 4' (5' is better) woven wire fence perimeter to "keep him" where you want him with a hot wire on top and ~12" up from the ground to prevent digging out. These dogs don't really reach maturity until 18-24 months, though they can and will do their jobs quite effectively by 6 months. Some are patrollers (seems like yours) and some are watchers who will stay close to the herd they are protecting and watch.

Again, there is a wealth of info here on this site and I'm sure you'll learn a lot. Don't be afraid to ask questions! Many here will help as best they can.

 

[TMChickensLGD]

@BrendaMNgri

Thanks you for the article and the input. So much of the literature contradict itself we are having to take bits and pieces and hopefully make up a whole picture.

One night, Judd woke to one of the pups barking at a bookcase. “I had moved a large photo onto that bookcase, and Lucy noticed – something’s not where it belongs!”

This article implies that the LGD was in the House; which goes directly against everything I’ve read. They either bond to us and the pups inside OR the animals outside. Either way is fine depending on what you expect their role to be; the inside LGD could get bored but could also become content.
We have people wondering our property at all hours of the day, we own cabins and many people come and interact with our pets. There was hot wire around every fence and we deactivated it and will not be using it. We cannot risk children coming into contact with it.
It is very perplexing to me that it would be acceptable to put hot wire up to keep a dog in but not use an electric collar to contain him. Also the guidance not to “drag” him on a leash is confusing. If he doesn’t want to be on a leash but will NOT stay with us on a routine walk or play/sit with us quietly AND we are not to keep him confined to12 x12 stall when we are not interacting with him; What Are We To Do With Him to gain his trust? We didnt get him from a trusted breeder and we knew there would be challenges as he was a rescue with an unknow past. We can’t let him just run free. We can’t let him not be on a leash. We can’t not put him up in a confined area to keep him safe. This is all very confusing.
We will have a lot to consider with all that’s been shared and we thank you all.

 

[TMChickensLGD]

Here’s Scout at his very best. One of our best nights with him was a few friends hung out in a big field around a bon fire and he stayed with us (or within eyesight) the entire night. Patrolling around all of us and the fire periodically and completely content.
He absolutely loves Dolly (our llama) and she loves him.

 

[Baymule]

On the inside the house thing, our male GP, Trip usually comes in the house every night for a nap. He asks by peering in the window from the front porch. We let him in, he slinks in like a big white lion, sprawls out in the floor and is out in seconds. He wakes up, is antsy and we let him out.

He is an independent dog. He jumps in and out of the pastures at will. He jumped out of the property once, which resulted in a series of Come To Jesus meetings. I walked him in the outer fence, stopping between T-posts, shaking the fence and scolding. I called him to me, petted and praised, went to the next section and repeated. For 3 weeks! He got the message.

We have our 8 acres and all cross fencing in non climb horse wire. It is 2”x4” and 4 feet high. We have Sheep, chickens, horses and occasionally feeder pigs.

We also have a female GP, she never comes in the house and was uneasy when we tried. She doesn’t jump fences, but will dig out in a heartbeat. Likewise she had to be taught her boundaries. She stays with the Sheep, fiercely guards chickens, and kills every snake she finds.

A good fence is a must. Electric fence/collars won’t work. The dog sees a predator, blows through the non existent fence, but then won’t come back in because he remembers the shock. They must have a visual barrier.

Your dog OWNS EVERYTHING. He owns the dirt under his feet. He owns everything he sees. He owns everything inside his territory. He must have a fence barrier to keep him from owning everything for miles around. Make sense?

Some day, he may casually place his foot on top of your foot. Rejoice when this happens. For he now OWNS YOU. He is not yours, you are his.

 

[BrendaMNgri]

@BrendaMNgri

Thanks you for the article and the input. So much of the literature contradict itself we are having to take bits and pieces and hopefully make up a whole picture.



This article implies that the LGD was in the House; which goes directly against everything I’ve read. They either bond to us and the pups inside OR the animals outside. Either way is fine depending on what you expect their role to be; the inside LGD could get bored but could also become content.
We have people wondering our property at all hours of the day, we own cabins and many people come and interact with our pets. There was hot wire around every fence and we deactivated it and will not be using it. We cannot risk children coming into contact with it.
It is very perplexing to me that it would be acceptable to put hot wire up to keep a dog in but not use an electric collar to contain him. Also the guidance not to “drag” him on a leash is confusing. If he doesn’t want to be on a leash but will NOT stay with us on a routine walk or play/sit with us quietly AND we are not to keep him confined to12 x12 stall when we are not interacting with him; What Are We To Do With Him to gain his trust? We didnt get him from a trusted breeder and we knew there would be challenges as he was a rescue with an unknow past. We can’t let him just run free. We can’t let him not be on a leash. We can’t not put him up in a confined area to keep him safe. This is all very confusing.
We will have a lot to consider with all that’s been shared and we thank you all.

I have bred LGDs for a decade, other dogs before that, my whole life.
I have some LGDs who spend time in my house when it's too hot for them outside.
In no way, shape or form has it dulled their guarding instinct. In fact, it seems to intensify it.
Anyone who thinks letting an LGD in the house now and then will ruin it obviously either has some very inferior LGDs or cannot understand
how smart these dogs really are.

Confused? This is why, I encourage people to not just read forums.
This my dear is where you get to learn how to practice discernment. As to what information you take as bonafide and good, and what you do not. And you
should consider the source, always. Which is why I always encourage people to read books, not just spend their learning time online. Books and magazines.
There are lots of ag magazines, journals, quarterlies etc. you can subscribe to and even access to some point online but get off social media and go to more
sources that are based on magazines, some of which have been around for decades.
Typically authors who write for them are vetted out and are experienced sources of good information, not rampant speculation or bad info.
Yes, very few people have time to wade through all the stuff on a forum this big, which is why I say, open yourself up to other venues as well.

Kids and hot wire - hey, it only takes one zap to teach them to leave it alone. They learn quick. Like dogs. Put signs on it, "electric fence" and tell their
parents to read the signs. I know I sound brutal but out here in the Big Nasty Desert idiots on ranches don't last very long... (wink)

Slow down, slow down. Your mind is going a mile a minute and I appreciate your zeal to learn but take a breath and stop and just be with that
pup. Learn to just sit with him, without expectations or training or do this, do that all the time.

I have a blog, it's listed on my signature. Spend some time on it. There is a post about introducing LGDs to guests and visitors on it.
Read about the canine body language and communication signals that my customer used to effect a seamless intro of his family
visitors to his LGDs, and what he did to make it work.

And don't forget to breathe!

 

[Bruce]

That is SO Picture Of the Week worthy!!

It is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff when learning, especially now with the internet where there are more "experts" than you can shake a stick at. There is one lady that tells you your hens will lay every day if you feed them cracked corn, whole oats and bread And sadly many people follow her site, I seriously doubt they have the healthiest chickens around.

Certainly learn from those here that have LGDs. People that have them AS guardian dogs, not backyard pets, know them best.

 

[Mike CHS]

Great post Brenda

 

[Mike CHS]

That is SO Picture Of the Week worthy!!

It is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff when learning, especially now with the internet where there are more "experts" than you can shake a stick at. There is one lady that tells you your hens will lay every day if you feed them cracked corn, whole oats and bread And sadly many people follow her site, I seriously doubt they have the healthiest chickens around.

Certainly learn from those here that have LGDs. People that have them AS guardian dogs, not backyard pets, know them best.

I'll second that! Great pictues

 

[TMChickensLGD]

Thank you everyone!

Confused? This is why, I encourage people to not just read forums.

There are several books to name a few; Livestock Guardian Dogs by Jon Mitchell, New Improved Great Pyrenees Dog Training and Understanding Guide Book by Vince Stead and Life with Livestock Guardian Dogs by Barb Dickenson. Researching through the website Livestock Guardian Dogs which also has a wealth of information. I can’t wait to read more of your blog too!

Thank you for realizing we are working really hard to do the right thing..and need to just relax. He is so easy to love and such a free spirit. Great advice.

@Baymule

Some day, he may casually place his foot on top of your foot. Rejoice when this happens. For he now OWNS YOU. He is not yours, you are his.

This was so powerful and went straight to my heart for he is like this silent, powerful force that has been so patient with our stupidity. I picture him shaking his head after we leave him for the night...saying to himself “tomorrow they might get it”...

We have 7 pastures and we are going to fence one in for him & the chickens. We have a few that would keep him in but not the chickens; that’s what we were hoping he would help protect them by not letting them run amuck.

If we keep him in a pasture with the chickens how will we ever get to socialize like you all do; letting him come in if wants, or roaming the property or just hanging out with us and the other 3 dogs? We literally can’t let him out of the pen; if we do he stays close and lays in the shade while we work ourside. But after a bit he is gone to play in the creek in he middle of our property and wonders home when he wants. No leash either as he hates it.

Thank you all for the kinds words about his pictures. He is vey playful and photogenic. We are just going to enjoy him the best we have a put his job on the back burner for now until we earn his trust!