REW NZ X Broken Blk NZ = What color is this thing?

Bunnylady

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A lot of Steels really just look like a very dark Chestnut; some even have white bellies. Since Steel can look like a self-patterned rabbit, and doesn't show on self-patterned rabbits, it's possible for a Black (or Broken Black) to be carrying Steel, and not show it - so it's possible this could have come from your doe, as well.
 

GypsyG

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A lot of Steels really just look like a very dark Chestnut; some even have white bellies. Since Steel can look like a self-patterned rabbit, and doesn't show on self-patterned rabbits, it's possible for a Black (or Broken Black) to be carrying Steel, and not show it - so it's possible this could have come from your doe, as well.

I may be completely wrong in my understanding of steel, but in order for my doe to have it, wouldn't she have to have two copies to still appear dense black?
 

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If your doe is a self (aa) she could have Steel (Es) and nobody would know, until she was bred to a rabbit with agout (A). Some will tell you that Steel puts ticking on a self; I do not understand how that is supposed to happen (since Steel acts by putting more black on the coat than you would otherwise see), and I had always heard that Steel doesn't show on a self. I have had rabbits that I knew were A_Esej that were solid black or just lightly ticked. My understanding is that only A_EsE will appear as the classic Steel; any other combination can have a wide range of expression from solid black through various amounts of ticking.
 

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If your doe is a self (aa) she could have Steel (Es) and nobody would know, until she was bred to a rabbit with agout (A). Some will tell you that Steel puts ticking on a self; I do not understand how that is supposed to happen (since Steel acts by putting more black on the coat than you would otherwise see), and I had always heard that Steel doesn't show on a self. I have had rabbits that I knew were A_Esej that were solid black or just lightly ticked. My understanding is that only A_EsE will appear as the classic Steel; any other combination can have a wide range of expression from solid black through various amounts of ticking.


ej? That's the gene responsible for harlequins and tri-colors, right?

Please excuse my ignorance. I know horse color genetics backwards, forwards, up and down... I'm just now starting to try to wrap my head around rabbit colors though.
 

GypsyG

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Yes. The rabbits in question were the result of breeding a pedigreed Harlequin buck to a NZW.
I just aquired my first ej rabbit the other day! Her name is Zelda. Does she have to be bred to another rabbit that carries ej in order to have visual ej kits?
KIMG0193.jpg
 
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Bunnylady

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Harlequin (ej) is dominant to non-extension (e), so breeding a visual harlie to an animal with at least one copy of non-extension gives you at least a chance of harlequin/tri babies. Of course, holding fast (as they do) to "how can we drive her crazy today," I'd have to do a cross several times to get the color I want to see, and that kit would die at birth, or get pulled from the nest and die, or find some other way to not be what I was looking for after all.
 

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Harlequin (ej) is dominant to non-extension (e), so breeding a visual harlie to an animal with at least one copy of non-extension gives you at least a chance of harlequin/tri babies. Of course, holding fast (as they do) to "how can we drive her crazy today," I'd have to do a cross several times to get the color I want to see, and that kit would die at birth, or get pulled from the nest and die, or find some other way to not be what I was looking for after all.

Thank you for the information! I have a big broken red buck, I'm about to retire him because he's getting old and judging by his last two litters he's sired I think he's shooting lots of blanks. Maybe I'll try him out one more time on her and cross my fingers for a decent tri-colored Charlie!

I posted a new thread today with pics of my herd and my best genetic guesses about them. If you enjoy color genetics and would be willing to help me fill in some of the blanks I would greatly appreciate any input!

Thanks again, Bunnylady!

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/fun-genetic-puzzles.38736/
 
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Bunnylady

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a decent tri-colored Charlie!

Be careful what you wish for.:hide

Just as there are some horse spotting genes that can cause issues that go far beyond color, the broken gene is also a two-edged sword. The gene that causes the broken pattern (En) is involved in the formation of the nerves and muscles surrounding the digestive tract. Animals with one copy of En have a few less of the nerves than enen animals, but EnEn animals have a lot fewer, so their digestive systems are downright sluggish. In addition, there is a condition called megacolon, where at least part of the large intestine balloons into a shape that is more like a pouch than a tube. A few months ago, I read a study that examined this issue, using Checkered Giants as the test subjects (I'd hunt it up and do a link to it, but it has such a high fog index it could be a cure for insomnia). The study found a 1-to-1 correlation between EnEn animals and megacolon. At minimum, animals with this condition have difficulty absorbing nutrients; Charlies in general grow slower than their siblings. Depending how badly the animal is affected, it may seem otherwise fairly normal, but they are prone to GI stasis episodes, and eventually, you won't be able to get the digestive system going again. Some Charlies don't survive long enough to crawl out of the nest box. The condition seems to be progressive; animals that seem only slightly affected as youngsters get worse over time, so just being a Charlie pretty much guarantees a shortened lifespan. The issue is serious enough, a lot of breeders just don't do broken-to-broken breedings, simply to avoid the risk of producing Charlies.
 

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Be careful what you wish for.:hide

Just as there are some horse spotting genes that can cause issues that go far beyond color, the broken gene is also a two-edged sword. The gene that causes the broken pattern (En) is involved in the formation of the nerves and muscles surrounding the digestive tract. Animals with one copy of En have a few less of the nerves than enen animals, but EnEn animals have a lot fewer, so their digestive systems are downright sluggish. In addition, there is a condition called megacolon, where at least part of the large intestine balloons into a shape that is more like a pouch than a tube. A few months ago, I read a study that examined this issue, using Checkered Giants as the test subjects (I'd hunt it up and do a link to it, but it has such a high fog index it could be a cure for insomnia). The study found a 1-to-1 correlation between EnEn animals and megacolon. At minimum, animals with this condition have difficulty absorbing nutrients; Charlies in general grow slower than their siblings. Depending how badly the animal is affected, it may seem otherwise fairly normal, but they are prone to GI stasis episodes, and eventually, you won't be able to get the digestive system going again. Some Charlies don't survive long enough to crawl out of the nest box. The condition seems to be progressive; animals that seem only slightly affected as youngsters get worse over time, so just being a Charlie pretty much guarantees a shortened lifespan. The issue is serious enough, a lot of breeders just don't do broken-to-broken breedings, simply to avoid the risk of producing Charlies.

Thanks for the info!

Darn it! I had just read an article about how a Charlie would produce 100% broken kits when bred with a solid... The article didn't mention any of the bad stuff. I guess I'll have to rethink that wish.
:barnie
 

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