Ridgetop - our place and how we muddle along

[Ridgetop]

After our disastrous last year with Barberpole worm losses I looked into methods of parasite control. I saw that some people were using copper boluses and wire in goats and cattle for worm control. Since most sheep people practically have a heart attack if their feed contains any copper, I investigated copper requirements and health risks in sheep. Sheep DO require copper, just not as much as goats and cattle.

The required range of copper for most sheep is minimum 8ppm and maximum of 15ppm. the range required by the sheep depends on whether they are pregnant, lactating, or dry. Bred ewes require higher amounts of copper (12-15 ppm) for the developing fetus. Lactating ewes require slightly less (10-12 ppm) but more than open ewes since they are putting some of the copper into their milk for the lambs. Lambs also require a slightly higher amount of copper than the 8 ppm minimum since they are developing growing skeletons and bodies. The type and amount of minerals in your hay depends on where it is grown. You can do soil tests through your Extension Agent to determine the minerals in your pasture soil.

I think that the lack of any copper in their diets last year may have contributed to all the deaths in the flock. Our entire lamb crop (15 lambs) died over a eriod of 4-6 weeks after being integrated with the adult ewe flock. While that may have been because the lamb pasture had a minimal Barberpole count and the ewe pasture had a higher count, the lack of copper probably gave the lambs little to no resistance to parasites when exposed to them. The lambs were all about 5-6 months old when turned in with the adut ewes. We also lost 8 adult ewes and several adult rams.

We had been feeding pellet feed with no copper in it for the past 18 months. The protein count in that feed was 10%. Now we have switched to a pellet feed with a copper range of 8 ppm to 15 ppm, and a protein content of 15%. We are hoping the copper ratio will help with worm resistance this year. We also give a mixture of corn and barley on top of that. Corn and barley are low in copper, but higher in Phosphorus and Potassium which helps the processing of copper. Neither of those grains is appreciable in Selenium. To be on the safe side, we vaccinate with Selenium (Bo-Se) before turning in the ram with the ewes. This overcomes any problem with low Selenium in newborn lambs.

I am also utilizing the Poopa's lye method worm protocol from the internet. We burned oak in our fireplace all winter and have been saving the ashes. I will sift them and mix them with their loose salt mineral mixture, also as recommended by Poopa. Another test on using the lye worming process was run by Harmony Shepherdess using fecal counts before and after worming. Whoe she used goats, the tests were quite interesting. She also had the fecals checked by her vet before and after worming. She used 1 tsp lye to 2 cups water mixed into 2 gallons of grain. This recipe is a stronger lye solution than used by Poopa, but had quite impressive results.

I TESTED LYE AS A DEWORMER FOR LIVESTOCK (vet results) The Shepherdess

CLICK FOR MY FREE E-BOOK "13 Things You Need to Raise Sheep"

www.shepherdess.com

I am going to continue using it. The only problem I see with this method is that you can't control the amounts each individual sheep eats. Hopefully between the lye worming, and the additional copper in their feed, my sheep will not be as susceptible to worms this year. I will be worming again before I leave for California.

I might try using half goat mineral and half sheep mineral as well like Mike suggests.

 

[SageHill]

You had a horrid year last year. that this year is better-- you've certainly taken steps to improve things.
Before I knew about copper in sheep I gave them a horse mineral block, did that for about a year before I read/heard about copper and said to myself YIKES HOLY CRAP I'm killing my sheep. Pulled the mineral bricks out. But they never showed and signs of being sick. So there's that.

 

[farmerjan]

Half the time our sheep have access to the cattle mineral.... "nuff said"..

 

[Baymule]

You had a horrid year last year. that this year is better-- you've certainly taken steps to improve things.
Before I knew about copper in sheep I gave them a horse mineral block, did that for about a year before I read/heard about copper and said to myself YIKES HOLY CRAP I'm killing my sheep. Pulled the mineral bricks out. But they never showed and signs of being sick. So there's that.

They won't show signs of being sick. The copper stores in their liver instead of passing through. So if they get real stressed, the liver dumps the copper all at once and it overcomes the sheep and they die.

I was feeding a pellet that had copper in it up to 15 ppm, but switched to a bulk feed that saves me $100 a month. Now I'm mixing goat mineral with sheep mineral.

And the battle rages on.........

 

[Ridgetop]

Before I knew about copper in sheep I gave them a horse mineral block, did that for about a year before I read/heard about copper and said to myself YIKES HOLY CRAP I'm killing my sheep. Pulled the mineral bricks out. But they never showed and signs of being sick.

We always bought the red mineral block for our horses, goats and sheep. Everyone had one in their pens with no bad effects. In fact I need to buy a couple more, particularly for the horses whoe block was totally consumed a couple months ago. I prefer using the blocks because they don't solidify in humid weather like the loose minerals do.

At any rate, as an update on the lye situation I wormed everyone except the 2 new rams last night with the lye solution. Didn't bother with them because they were just wormed with Cydectin when we trimmed hooves and vaccinated on Tuesday. I wormed the weaned lambs but there are only 5 of them so naturally I cut the amount of treated grain. Then I worried all night that maybe it was still too much and I had killed them. Spoiler Alert: They are fine.

However, as I woke up several tmes during the night worrying about the effect of lye and the amount of grain to feed something occurred to me. In my reading about lye and its use as a worm treatment I read that lye is extremely alkaline. The alkaline potency is what makes it burn skin, poisonous, and dangerous to use without proper precautions.

We raised livestock for 40 years in the dry foothills (cliff sides LOL) in Southern California with little or no worming needed. Mainly dairy goats, but we also raised Boers, a small flock of Dorset sheep, and another of mixed breed market sheep for fair lambs. After the first few years we stopped worming anything for parasites. I have been attributing that to hand carried hay instead of grazing pastures. BUT we bought our alfalfa from local sources. The hay was grown on former desert which was irrigated with water lines. Those desert areas in Southern California have a high alkaline soil content as opposed to more acidic soils in other parts of the country with more rain. In fact when all my new landscaping died continually in Shadow Hills I did a soil test. Our property tested at 9 Ph which was at the top of the alkaline bar. Normal growing soil tests around 5. I was shocked - our original home in the middle of the SanFernando Valley had lovely soil.

West Texas has much less problems with Barberpole worm than east Texas. It is a drier, more desert environment. Across the western desert areas of the US there is a history of many alkaline water holes, many of them so alkaline as to be toxic to humans and fauna. After 40 years of raising sheep and goats worm free in southern California I had never even heard of Barberpole worms before moving here. In the past 20 years I had never wormed a single animal (except the dogs) on our property in southern California. Since moving to NE Texas I have wormed countless times in the past 2 years! And still had devastating parasite-caused mortality.

After a mostly sleepless night I finally came up with these questions:
1. Is the alkalinity of the western desert areas the reason Barberpole is not a problem there?
2. Is the more acidic and wetter soil of the east Texas the reason Barberpole thrives there?
3. Is the use of lye solution (heavily alkalinic but not enough to poison the recipients) the reason it is effective against Barberpole?

The results from The Shepherdess' tests as confirmed by her vet's fecal exams seem to show the total effectiveness of the lye treatment. Although her tests were run on her dairy goats, not on her sheep, the results are quite impressive. She shows her vet's test results from the first test showing the extremely high concentration of worms, including one animal with bottle jaw, through 2 or 3 wormings which show a complete absence of worms. These are not just her own fecal exams, she had her vet test fecals at each stage or treatment.
www.shepherdess.com/i-tested-lye-as-a-dewormer...

COMMENTS? IDEAS? THOUGHTS? Anyone with a background in chemistry who can comment?

At any rate, I will continue the lye treatments on a monthly basis. I have not decided whether or not to stop commercial worming of ewes immediately after lambing yet. It is easy to doing their jugs and since the birth hormones actively give any parasites a jumpstart, it may still be a good idea. I am not opposed to commercial methods if they work on the sheep. I am not a "holistic" or "natural products only" person. I just want to eradicate Barberpole as much as possible from my sheep. My hesitation with commercial wormers is that they eventually fail as the surviving parasites build immunity. My hope is that with the lye monthly treatments, rotational grazing, commercial wormers where necessary, I can keep my sheep from dying off in the unholy percentages of last year!

Anyway, more stuff marked off the list. More black cross outs than chores left on it thank heaven! DD2 and DGD3 came by Thursday to visit before we head back to California. DD2 said they had to decided to stay in Wiley since the schools have a good special ed program for autism. Annabel has improved tremendously. No longer takes all her clothes off at every opportunity. Can vocalise 2 word sentences and is starting on 3 words sentences. Understands the consequences of actions more, etc. We went out to dinner and Annabel sat in her booster and ate without tantrums. She has also grown several inches taller! She is a darling. DD2 said they will be moving from their 1 bedroom apartment to a small rental house in Wiley. The rents are more expensive there than in Tyler but the school system for Annabel's autism is excellent so it's a no-brainer.

DS2 finally got the quote for the shower in his MBR so I don't have to bring my tools and tile his bathroom. $8800 but with a hot mop floor and good solid tile work by a 4th generation tile man. However, we have to bring the crow bars and destruction bar since DS2 has decided that he and DS1 will rip out the concrete shower base themselves to redo the shower drain. Apparently it is rusted out. The tile guy said $800 to do the new drain so DS2 decided he and DS1 can do it themselves. The cost of this house is getting to him. DH and I suggested he get a fixer but he wanted a walk in ready house. Well sorry Son, there is no such thing! So far he has spent about $35K on repairs to his "walk in ready" house. Oh wait! I guess instead of the tile tools we better bring the concrete tools . . . just found them in the tool shed. Better load them too. LOL I hope we will have time to do our own work getting our house ready to sell. I wonder what DD1 has planned for DS1 and DH to do for her.

 

[SageHill]

I have no idea about the alkaline and So Cal. But I'd say there is definitely something to that given all you've got. It's those AH HA moments at 3AM that can be amazing. Sure makes sense.

 

[fuzzi]

We always bought the red mineral block for our horses, goats and sheep. Everyone had one in their pens with no bad effects. In fact I need to buy a couple more, particularly for the horses whoe block was totally consumed a couple months ago. I prefer using the blocks because they don't solidify in humid weather like the loose minerals do.

At any rate, as an update on the lye situation I wormed everyone except the 2 new rams last night with the lye solution. Didn't bother with them because they were just wormed with Cydectin when we trimmed hooves and vaccinated on Tuesday. I wormed the weaned lambs but there are only 5 of them so naturally I cut the amount of treated grain. Then I worried all night that maybe it was still too much and I had killed them. Spoiler Alert: They are fine.

However, as I woke up several tmes during the night worrying about the effect of lye and the amount of grain to feed something occurred to me. In my reading about lye and its use as a worm treatment I read that lye is extremely alkaline. The alkaline potency is what makes it burn skin, poisonous, and dangerous to use without proper precautions.

We raised livestock for 40 years in the dry foothills (cliff sides LOL) in Southern California with little or no worming needed. Mainly dairy goats, but we also raised Boers, a small flock of Dorset sheep, and another of mixed breed market sheep for fair lambs. After the first few years we stopped worming anything for parasites. I have been attributing that to hand carried hay instead of grazing pastures. BUT we bought our alfalfa from local sources. The hay was grown on former desert which was irrigated with water lines. Those desert areas in Southern California have a high alkaline soil content as opposed to more acidic soils in other parts of the country with more rain. In fact when all my new landscaping died continually in Shadow Hills I did a soil test. Our property tested at 9 Ph which was at the top of the alkaline bar. Normal growing soil tests around 5. I was shocked - our original home in the middle of the SanFernando Valley had lovely soil.

West Texas has much less problems with Barberpole worm than east Texas. It is a drier, more desert environment. Across the western desert areas of the US there is a history of many alkaline water holes, many of them so alkaline as to be toxic to humans and fauna. After 40 years of raising sheep and goats worm free in southern California I had never even heard of Barberpole worms before moving here. In the past 20 years I had never wormed a single animal (except the dogs) on our property in southern California. Since moving to NE Texas I have wormed countless times in the past 2 years! And still had devastating parasite-caused mortality.

After a mostly sleepless night I finally came up with these questions:
1. Is the alkalinity of the western desert areas the reason Barberpole is not a problem there?
2. Is the more acidic and wetter soil of the east Texas the reason Barberpole thrives there?
3. Is the use of lye solution (heavily alkalinic but not enough to poison the recipients) the reason it is effective against Barberpole?

The results from The Shepherdess' tests as confirmed by her vet's fecal exams seem to show the total effectiveness of the lye treatment. Although her tests were run on her dairy goats, not on her sheep, the results are quite impressive. She shows her vet's test results from the first test showing the extremely high concentration of worms, including one animal with bottle jaw, through 2 or 3 wormings which show a complete absence of worms. These are not just her own fecal exams, she had her vet test fecals at each stage or treatment.
www.shepherdess.com/i-tested-lye-as-a-dewormer...

COMMENTS? IDEAS? THOUGHTS? Anyone with a background in chemistry who can comment?

At any rate, I will continue the lye treatments on a monthly basis. I have not decided whether or not to stop commercial worming of ewes immediately after lambing yet. It is easy to doing their jugs and since the birth hormones actively give any parasites a jumpstart, it may still be a good idea. I am not opposed to commercial methods if they work on the sheep. I am not a "holistic" or "natural products only" person. I just want to eradicate Barberpole as much as possible from my sheep. My hesitation with commercial wormers is that they eventually fail as the surviving parasites build immunity. My hope is that with the lye monthly treatments, rotational grazing, commercial wormers where necessary, I can keep my sheep from dying off in the unholy percentages of last year!

Anyway, more stuff marked off the list. More black cross outs than chores left on it thank heaven! DD2 and DGD3 came by Thursday to visit before we head back to California. DD2 said they had to decided to stay in Wiley since the schools have a good special ed program for autism. Annabel has improved tremendously. No longer takes all her clothes off at every opportunity. Can vocalise 2 word sentences and is starting on 3 words sentences. Understands the consequences of actions more, etc. We went out to dinner and Annabel sat in her booster and ate without tantrums. She has also grown several inches taller! She is a darling. DD2 said they will be moving from their 1 bedroom apartment to a small rental house in Wiley. The rents are more expensive there than in Tyler but the school system for Annabel's autism is excellent so it's a no-brainer.

DS2 finally got the quote for the shower in his MBR so I don't have to bring my tools and tile his bathroom. $8800 but with a hot mop floor and good solid tile work by a 4th generation tile man. However, we have to bring the crow bars and destruction bar since DS2 has decided that he and DS1 will rip out the concrete shower base themselves to redo the shower drain. Apparently it is rusted out. The tile guy said $800 to do the new drain so DS2 decided he and DS1 can do it themselves. The cost of this house is getting to him. DH and I suggested he get a fixer but he wanted a walk in ready house. Well sorry Son, there is no such thing! So far he has spent about $35K on repairs to his "walk in ready" house. Oh wait! I guess instead of the tile tools we better bring the concrete tools . . . just found them in the tool shed. Better load them too. LOL I hope we will have time to do our own work getting our house ready to sell. I wonder what DD1 has planned for DS1 and DH to do for her.

No background in chemistry, but I learned a little with my gardening, and freshwater tropical fish hobby.

The water here is very soft, naturally, and the soil is extremely acidic. My yard soil tested in the low 5 range, 7 is neutral. I can grow acid loving plants like azaleas, gardenias, etc. with no supplements.

About the soft water...it also runs acidic. Soft water has few minerals, cannot maintain a pH level, so it crashes, becomes very acidic. I had a pH crash, water pH dropped below 5, and it killed most of my fish. Research taught me that the natural bacteria that handles fish waste dies when the water gets too acidic. So I put calcium back in the water by adding sea shells, which dissolve over time. It helps the water maintain a more neutral pH. And then the natural bacteria do their thing, converting waste into ammonia, then turning the ammonia into nitrites, eventually turning the nitrites into nitrates, which the aquarium plants love.

Barberpole worms may be adapted, even thrive in acid soils. If you add wood ash to up the pH in the soil it might inhibit their reproduction...which is kind of what you're doing with the lye.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Baymule]

I did the lye thing for awhile but it seemed that the ones that needed it most got the least. Short of running them through the chute and hand feeding them the lye feed, there is no way to control how much they get or know that all have gotten enough. While typing this, it dawned on me that I run them through the chute to worm them individually....... a DUH moment.

 

[Ridgetop]

We use 5 empty protein tubs to do the lye and grain treatment to make sure they all get enough. I purposely make more than I would to just grain them in their regular proportions. So far I have only done 2 treatments, but we will see how it goes. Additional Iron supplement vax may be necessary during worm season to keep them from getting too run down.

In a typically Ridgetop fashion we went out to load the trailer just as it started to rain. Optimistically telling each other it would stop, we got a few things bagged in plastic before giving in to the downpour and retreating into the house. The rain continued heavier and with loud thunder. At one point we couldn't see past the pump shed! This morning we will have to load everything. Although wet outside it is not raining. Most of what we need to load is sitting in one of the connexes ready to be bagged in case of rain on the road - we have learned over the years. LOL

I talked to DS2 last night and asked what tools he wanted us to bring back. He insisted he had tools. DS1 and I poited out that his ONE drill, etc. woi;d slow down the work. That is why when we were renovating our apartment buiding we invested in power tools for each of us. At one point, I collected about 15 measuring tapes since we were always grabbing them and there were arguments when one of us turned to get the one he was using and it was gone. Multiple tools, batteries, and chargers alleviated that problem. Since we all know how to use tools and work on different projects at the same time having multiples help the work go faster. Giving up on DS2's poor communication skills, we finally decided to bring extra tools of our own in case. DS1 asked DS2 if we needed to repair the concrete base after breaking it out in the master bath shower pan nd relaying the drain. After several minutes of cross talking it appears that YES the concrete will have to be repaired. So forget bringing the tile tools and bring our concrete tools instead. Oy Vay! Better remember to toss in a couple extra measuring tapes as well. LOL

I remembered to put our old coffee maker on the list of stuff to pack. Will have to find it in the shed. DS2 and DDIL2 are tryng to get everything moved into their new house this weekend. I am packing some cooking utensils since DDIL2 willhave most of hers in the new house. DS1 is not an effective communicator. We can use paper plates and plastic forks but I don't want to try to heat cans of stew over the fire pit! LOL

Still 2 ewes to lamb but I have given up on them. There are 4 clean jugs in the barn with clean hay and grain feeders and water buckets ready if they lamb. There are 8 lambs needing booster CDTs and we can run them into the walkway between the jugs to grab them and vax before leaving. I wormed 2 days ago. Three feed barrels (450 lb) are full of sheep pellet, 2 barrels (300 lb) are full of barley corn mix, 1 barrel is full of horse pellet (150 lb). All the barrels are clearly marked as to what they contain with a "DO NOT FEED TO SHEEP" caution on the horse barrel. There are new round bales in the pasture feeders and Payton is on standby to move more. There is enough alfalfa in bales to feed the lamb creep and weaned pen. Everyone has shelter. The fences are secure. We have done all we can for the livestock.

There is plenty of dog food in barrels on the porch. We switched to a different kibble and Ozel is eating well now. The spare bedroom is made up for Barb. She will be over this afternoon. She already has her key and a set of instructions. There is a second set on the fridge. She has all phone numbers.

Suitcase is packed except for last few things and overnight bag for motel. Wil ack the computer when I sign off this. No communication for a week. Packed some groceries that would have gone bad if left here. Need to pack the cooler and truck. We will leave before dawn tomorrow morning. As always I know I have forgotten some important stuff that I will remember when we reach Albuquerque.

I hate leaving.

 

[farmerjan]

Safe trip....