Rotenone for mites?

[Hykue]

So, I decided tonight was the night to treat my goat that has such itchy skin. I grabbed my enormous canister of Dri-Kill, which I had asked about using on goats when I bought it. The vet said it would work on goats, too (I bought it for my very old dog who got lice when she got sick near the end). I didn't think much about it, but when I read the label it only mentioned lice and keds (in sheep), it doesn't actually say that it works on mites. Of course, I didn't read the label until I was 3/4 done rubbing it into Dot's hair (or is it called fur?). Anyway, I'm not worried it's going to hurt her or anything, as the vet said it was ok for use on goats, and he used to have goats himself (although I don't think he likes them much). I'm just not sure it's going to do any good, either. I was thinking to inject some ivermectin as well, but I don't have any needles (syringes, yes, needles, no . . . I didn't know what size when I was last at the store), so that will have to wait until next time I'm in town. It seems that rotenone is no longer available in the States? Maybe not here, either, this was one old looking canister of powder - the vet literally brushed the dust off before he handed it to me. It is still effective, though, because it killed all the lice on my dog. Anyway, my point is that maybe no-one knows. Does anyone know if rotenone works for mites, too?

 

[()relics]

....I think I like your Ivomec thought....but orally.

 

[helmstead]

I don't have any idea if it works against mites...but as relics said - ivermec does for sure. I'd also dose it orally.

 

[cmjust0]

I'm going to be the turd in the punchbowl here and say....inject the Ivomec for mites.



My reasoning goes back to the whole moxidectin injection situation, and things I learned while I was researching it.. As I've probably mentioned like 9,000 times, the reason Cydectin injectable was originally recommended to be given SQ was because of it's "superior pharmacokinetic profile" when injected in goats...which only means the blood levels go higher when injected.

In trying to determine whether or not that was as short-sighted as it seemed (it was), I started looking into whether or not ivermectin -- a drug we KNOW works better on internal parasites when given orally -- also had a "superior pharmacokinetic profile" when injected.

Turns out, it does. No real surprise, huh?

Yep...just like moxidectin, blood levels come up higher when injected versus when it's dosed orally. It makes sense (where else is it going to go but into the blood, right?), but it also seems that -- for whatever reason -- a goat's body just doesn't absorb macrolides very well at all when they're drenched.

In fact, based on what I read about both drugs, it seems like the blood levels get to be about 4-5 times higher when given as an injection, versus given orally....which means that in order for blood levels to reach what the makers of Ivomec intended, you'd have to drench with WAY MORE than the label dose.

Which, of course... ...is what we do anyhow. We're killing worms through direct contact that way, but blood levels are also very likely getting up into that injected range, so it's also killing externals.

Now...given all that...and given that you're strictly treating something that can only be treated through blood...it makes sense to me to give it by whatever route is going to get the blood levels the highest in the most reliable way possible.

That would mean injecting it.

The upshot is that since blood levels come up way higher when given SQ, you shouldn't have to give the full 3-4x the label dose.. My thinking is that we can probably use it at the label dose and be fine when treating external parasites..

Indeed, I just injected a "mitey" doe with Ivomec two days ago.. She's a big boer/nubian hybrid who weighs >150lbs at least, and I seriously considered giving her 1.5ml...but I went on and rounded up to 2ml, SQ. I know she's not 220lbs, but my experience has been that they're often heavier than they look.

She had been kicking and stomping and chewing her legs and carrying on like she was just miserable....and she's not doing that anymore! By all indications, a scant 2ml given SQ worked like a charm on the externals.. I'll hit her again in 3wks, and probably again in another 3wks just to be sure as she's been a real PITA for mites this year.

What I like about doing it this way is that:

A) it works reliably, whereas I've read arguments both for and against oral dosage for mites. Some say it works, some say it doesn't.

B) it's less medication going through my goat.

C) it's less $$$ coming out of my pocket.

 

[lnm03]

I'm going to be the turd in the punchbowl here and say....inject the Ivomec for mites.



My reasoning goes back to the whole moxidectin injection situation, and things I learned while I was researching it.. As I've probably mentioned like 9,000 times, the reason Cydectin injectable was originally recommended to be given SQ was because of it's "superior pharmacokinetic profile" when injected in goats...which only means the blood levels go higher when injected.

In trying to determine whether or not that was as short-sighted as it seemed (it was), I started looking into whether or not ivermectin -- a drug we KNOW works better on internal parasites when given orally -- also had a "superior pharmacokinetic profile" when injected.

Turns out, it does. No real surprise, huh?

Yep...just like moxidectin, blood levels come up higher when injected versus when it's dosed orally. It makes sense (where else is it going to go but into the blood, right?), but it also seems that -- for whatever reason -- a goat's body just doesn't absorb macrolides very well at all when they're drenched.

In fact, based on what I read about both drugs, it seems like the blood levels get to be about 4-5 times higher when given as an injection, versus given orally....which means that in order for blood levels to reach what the makers of Ivomec intended, you'd have to drench with WAY MORE than the label dose.

Which, of course... ...is what we do anyhow. We're killing worms through direct contact that way, but blood levels are also very likely getting up into that injected range, so it's also killing externals.

Now...given all that...and given that you're strictly treating something that can only be treated through blood...it makes sense to me to give it by whatever route is going to get the blood levels the highest in the most reliable way possible.

That would mean injecting it.

The upshot is that since blood levels come up way higher when given SQ, you shouldn't have to give the full 3-4x the label dose.. My thinking is that we can probably use it at the label dose and be fine when treating external parasites..

Indeed, I just injected a "mitey" doe with Ivomec two days ago.. She's a big boer/nubian hybrid who weighs >150lbs at least, and I seriously considered giving her 1.5ml...but I went on and rounded up to 2ml, SQ. I know she's not 220lbs, but my experience has been that they're often heavier than they look.

She had been kicking and stomping and chewing her legs and carrying on like she was just miserable....and she's not doing that anymore! By all indications, a scant 2ml given SQ worked like a charm on the externals.. I'll hit her again in 3wks, and probably again in another 3wks just to be sure as she's been a real PITA for mites this year.

What I like about doing it this way is that:

A) it works reliably, whereas I've read arguments both for and against oral dosage for mites. Some say it works, some say it doesn't.

B) it's less medication going through my goat.

C) it's less $$$ coming out of my pocket.

What size of needle would you use?

 

[cmjust0]

I like a 20ga for oily stuff like Ivomec for your average goat.

If it's a particularly sweet, patient goat...or a young, easily handled goat...you can get away with a 22ga.. You'll have to push somewhat slowly, though, so be sure they're of the right attitude to stand for it..

If it's a particularly mean or ornery goat, they get an 18ga because A) I can push it faster which limits my contact with the aforementioned ornery goat, and B) I figure it probably hurts more.

 

[Hykue]

Great, thanks for all the info and opinions. I will call the breeder - if they wormed her this spring then I'll inject, if they didn't, I'll go oral. I know the assumption should be that they did, but their philosophy seems to be "low-maintenance" for the goats, so I will ask just to be sure.

On another note, if I'm planning to use Ivomec as my fall wormer, am I doing a stupid thing by using it at a low dose now - ie. injecting it? From reading your other posts, cm, I was of the understanding that injection probably increases internal parasite resistance to the wormer. This makes sense to me. If I inject it now, should I use a different wormer when the time comes for that?

 

[cmjust0]

If you're gunning for worms and external parasites, definitely dose it orally...like lots of other folks, I use it orally at a rate of 1ml/25lbs. If that doesn't take care of your external parasite problem as well, then you don't have much choice but to inject it anyway.

The question then becomes...will injecting Ivomec ruin it more quickly for internal parasites?

My answer is...too late!

The reason it's used at such a high oral dose is because the worms that cause us the most problems -- barberpoles -- are typically pretty highly resistant to ivermectin anyway. It depends a lot on your particular population of worms, of course, but rest assured that your goats came pre-loaded with worms...and those worms are descendants of someone else's worms...and those are descendants of someone else's...so on, so forth. Somewhere along the line, the ancestors of your worms have almost certainly been exposed to macrolides like ivermectin and lived to tell the tale.....and make cute little ivermectin-resistant worm babies.

What I've come to believe/understand -- based on everything I've read about resistant barberpoles, as well as what I've seen in my own herd -- is that even among ivermectin resistant populations of barberpole worms, ivermectin will still kill some of them if you use it at a high enough oral dose.

So...to me...given the current state of affairs between ivermectin and barberpoles anyway...I'm personally less concerned about making that situation worse than it already is than I am about NOT taking care of external parasites, if external parasites are the problem of the day.

That's me, though..

 

[Hykue]

I did it, I gave my first two injections! It wasn't really too bad for me. Dot didn't mind either. Dash - well, it put Dash off her feed. She wouldn't finish her grain after she got an injection. Oh well, I think it should do the trick. And now I have more confidence in at least my sub-Q injection abilities, so if I ever need to do it in a bad situation, at least that one thing won't be stressful.

Thanks, everyone, for the advice. The previous owners had been worming Dot, so I went with an injection. Of course, now I won't know if the rotenone would have worked, but I want to get Dot in top shape as soon as possible. I figured I should do Dash at the same time, because she probably got mites from Dot. Anyway, yay!