What do you do if ...you want to snatch rear(cae prevention) but have no colostrum and don't think you can milk your doe(won't allow us to touch her udder?) Is their a way to make her allow me to ,ilk her, or give up and let her raise her own kids?
Snatch rearing question.
- Thread starter taraann81
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Overrun with beasties
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Not 100% sure what you are asking taaran ... but ...
1) If you dont have colostrum, or dont think you can milk it out of the doe to feed the kid, you can either purchase it from a dairy (cow) farm, or get a powdered substitute, which works just fine. Matter of fact I have successfully reared many babies without colostrum all together, but thats a different story ...
2) If your doe doesnt want to stand to be milked ... basically you need to get tough and tell her that you dont care what fuss she makes, she is going to get milked. Because. You. Said. So. The first thing to do is tie her up, by a collar or headstall/halter, I prefer the headstall/halter over the collar. Tie her very tight to a solid rail, with her head high, and hang some feed up high so she can reach it. Then try to milk her, first by rubbing under her belly then onto the udder. If she wont stand, take another rope and tie it round her belly and/or flank and back to the solid rail, so she is effectively pinned to the rail and cant move. Try again to milk her. Then if she is still kicking you may need to get a third rope and tie her leg back to the rail. This works for the absolute wildest animals, and after a few milkings they will get the hang of it and you can start weaning them off the restraints. Start with the leg rope, and then the flank/rib rope, then by tying the head down lower, and looser, and eventually you will have a goat that doesnt even need to be tied up for milking, she will just stand when you put a bucket of feed in front of her.
3) If you want to bottle feed the kid and milk the doe, make the decision before she kids, and dont allow the kid to suckle at all. It is so much harder on both mum and bub, and you, if bubby is allowed to suckle colostrum directly from mum. Instead, bottle feed the colostrum to bub so that he only knows the bottle and teat as the milk provider, not the udder.
Oh and one more thought. A milk stand is handy, but not essential. I milked every day for 6 years without a milk stand, and at one point was milking 26 does morning and night. I've only just now got a milk stand, and as I only have one doe in milk currently I dont even use it every time for her. When I go out to milk if she is near the dairy I take her down and she jumps on the stand for me, but if she is elsewhere I just put the bucket down wherever she is, and sit on the ground and milk away.
Hope that helps,
K
1) If you dont have colostrum, or dont think you can milk it out of the doe to feed the kid, you can either purchase it from a dairy (cow) farm, or get a powdered substitute, which works just fine. Matter of fact I have successfully reared many babies without colostrum all together, but thats a different story ...
2) If your doe doesnt want to stand to be milked ... basically you need to get tough and tell her that you dont care what fuss she makes, she is going to get milked. Because. You. Said. So. The first thing to do is tie her up, by a collar or headstall/halter, I prefer the headstall/halter over the collar. Tie her very tight to a solid rail, with her head high, and hang some feed up high so she can reach it. Then try to milk her, first by rubbing under her belly then onto the udder. If she wont stand, take another rope and tie it round her belly and/or flank and back to the solid rail, so she is effectively pinned to the rail and cant move. Try again to milk her. Then if she is still kicking you may need to get a third rope and tie her leg back to the rail. This works for the absolute wildest animals, and after a few milkings they will get the hang of it and you can start weaning them off the restraints. Start with the leg rope, and then the flank/rib rope, then by tying the head down lower, and looser, and eventually you will have a goat that doesnt even need to be tied up for milking, she will just stand when you put a bucket of feed in front of her.
3) If you want to bottle feed the kid and milk the doe, make the decision before she kids, and dont allow the kid to suckle at all. It is so much harder on both mum and bub, and you, if bubby is allowed to suckle colostrum directly from mum. Instead, bottle feed the colostrum to bub so that he only knows the bottle and teat as the milk provider, not the udder.
Oh and one more thought. A milk stand is handy, but not essential. I milked every day for 6 years without a milk stand, and at one point was milking 26 does morning and night. I've only just now got a milk stand, and as I only have one doe in milk currently I dont even use it every time for her. When I go out to milk if she is near the dairy I take her down and she jumps on the stand for me, but if she is elsewhere I just put the bucket down wherever she is, and sit on the ground and milk away.
Hope that helps,
K
FarmerChick
Overrun with beasties
CAE prevention is take the kids immediately and bottle raise them on milk replacer.
You can milk the doe by simply tying her head tight and someone hold the front and someone hold the back end, and milk away to relieve some of that full udder.
the colostrum from the doe will be infected if she has CAE so you can't use it from the doe if you know she is positive and you want to stop the transfer.
here is a CAE article from my great site..LOL
CAPRINE ARTHRITIC ENCEPHALITIS - THE SILENT KILLER
Caprine Arthritic Encephalitis (CAE), discovered by researchers at Washington State University over 20 years ago, is a viral infection in goats which can cause encephalitis in kids and chronic joint disease in adults.
The elusive nature of CAE complicates the goat raiser's ability to control the disease. Goats can be infected with CAE their entire lives and never display visible symptoms. The disease is more often seen in adult goats. Encephalitic seizures usually kill infected kids quickly.
Adults with visible signs of CAE often have over-sized knobby knees that are swollen in appearance. Sitting down is painful, so they don't wear the hair off their knees. Smooth knee pads can be an indication of CAE infection. Hard udders, sometimes without any milk at all, and fatal pneumonia are symptomatic of CAE. Progressive crippling arthritis is displayed in older adults. Caprine Arthritic Encephalitis is a retro-virus; in other words, antibodies created by the CAE-positive goat are not effective in attacking the virus. The presence of antibodies indicates infection but not immunity to the disease. AIDS in humans is also a retro-virus. While CAE is restricted to goats (caprines), other ruminants have their own species' versions of retro-viruses. Unlike Caseous Lymphadinitis (CL), another infectious disease found in some goats, CAE is not contagious to human beings.
Researchers at Washington State University found that 80% of the dairy goats which they tested carried the virus, while a smaller percentage displayed clinical (visible) symptoms of the disease. However, CAE is not unique to dairy goats, although it has been most commonly associated with dairy breeds in the past. With the appearance of the Boer goat into the United States and the cross-breeding frenzy which has occurred as breeders try to create an improved slaughter animal, CAE is showing up in many breeds in which it had not previously been found to exist.
The most direct infection route is from mother to kid through infected colostrum, body fluids, and milk. In order to maintain CAE-free herds, dairy-goat breeders often take kids from the dam at the moment of birth . . . never allowing her to touch them . . . and bottle-raise the kids on either pasteurized milk or milk replacer. The virus is directly connected to the production of white blood cells, so any body secretions which contain these cells are potential sources of infection for other members of the herd.
All tests currently available evaluate antibodies. Since not all CAE-infected goats have produced antibodies, "false negatives" are possible. A goat infected with CAE but who has not produced antibodies will test negative but still can shed the virus and infect other goats. If the goat has produced antibodies, it has the virus, will test positive, and will shed it to other herd members.
Complicating the matter even more, it is also possible to have negative kids out of a positive dam. Further, a dam who has given birth to twins can produce one offspring which tests positive and another that tests negative. . . out of the same litter. Kids under six months of age are extremely difficult to test accurately for CAE, so most laboratories recommend waiting until the offspring are eight months to one year old.
CAE testing is done on blood samples drawn from suspect goats either by a veterinarian or by the goat producer.
Several types of CAE tests exist and have varying degrees of accuracy. The ELISA test is generally recognized as the most reliable, displaying a sensitivity to CAE of up to 95.2%; the AGID test has produced results as low as 56%. These figures may be misleading, as many variables can affect the percentage results.
Since many meat goats will be slaughtered young and humans are not at risk, why should meat-goat producers be concerned about having CAE in their herd? There are three very good reasons for maintaining a disease-free herd:
The long-term health of the herd directly affects sales and, therefore, profits. CAE-infected does produce up to 25% less milk than non-infected dams . . . assuming that they have milk at all. In production meat-goat herds, multiple births are desired, so milk production is important in raising marketable kids. Just as mastitis is not a desired condition, so is CAE. Less milk = smaller kids = reduced profit. Producers of breeding stock must offer disease-free herd sires and dams. Buyers will not pay top dollar for infected animals and will often require testing of animals prior to purchasing them. If the producer is shipping out-of-state or out-of-the-country, it is highly likely that these tests are required by animal health regulations. CAE is incurable at this time.
When buying animals to add to your herd, routinely quarantine them for a minimum of two weeks before putting them with your other goats, not just for CAE-testing purposes but also to evaluate them for shipping fever, soremouth, pinkeye, and a host of other illnesses to which goats are susceptible. Increased interest in goats world-wide, and particularly in the United States, means that lots of goats are being shipped every day. Producers who do not quarantine new purchases are asking for problems. Keeping a "closed herd" in an expansive market is difficult, so follow these minimal precautions.
Producers running hundreds or thousands of head obviously cannot afford individual testing. So be alert for knobby knees, and perform random testing annually and before kidding.
Goats can carry CAE their entire lives and never show an outward sign of it. These silently-infected animals can test negative for the antibody until stress or some other factor activates it. Don't let this incurable disease catch you off guard. Follow these simple, inexpensive steps to keep CAE out of your herd , and the entire meat-goat industry will benefit.
You can milk the doe by simply tying her head tight and someone hold the front and someone hold the back end, and milk away to relieve some of that full udder.
the colostrum from the doe will be infected if she has CAE so you can't use it from the doe if you know she is positive and you want to stop the transfer.
here is a CAE article from my great site..LOL
CAPRINE ARTHRITIC ENCEPHALITIS - THE SILENT KILLER
Caprine Arthritic Encephalitis (CAE), discovered by researchers at Washington State University over 20 years ago, is a viral infection in goats which can cause encephalitis in kids and chronic joint disease in adults.
The elusive nature of CAE complicates the goat raiser's ability to control the disease. Goats can be infected with CAE their entire lives and never display visible symptoms. The disease is more often seen in adult goats. Encephalitic seizures usually kill infected kids quickly.
Adults with visible signs of CAE often have over-sized knobby knees that are swollen in appearance. Sitting down is painful, so they don't wear the hair off their knees. Smooth knee pads can be an indication of CAE infection. Hard udders, sometimes without any milk at all, and fatal pneumonia are symptomatic of CAE. Progressive crippling arthritis is displayed in older adults. Caprine Arthritic Encephalitis is a retro-virus; in other words, antibodies created by the CAE-positive goat are not effective in attacking the virus. The presence of antibodies indicates infection but not immunity to the disease. AIDS in humans is also a retro-virus. While CAE is restricted to goats (caprines), other ruminants have their own species' versions of retro-viruses. Unlike Caseous Lymphadinitis (CL), another infectious disease found in some goats, CAE is not contagious to human beings.
Researchers at Washington State University found that 80% of the dairy goats which they tested carried the virus, while a smaller percentage displayed clinical (visible) symptoms of the disease. However, CAE is not unique to dairy goats, although it has been most commonly associated with dairy breeds in the past. With the appearance of the Boer goat into the United States and the cross-breeding frenzy which has occurred as breeders try to create an improved slaughter animal, CAE is showing up in many breeds in which it had not previously been found to exist.
The most direct infection route is from mother to kid through infected colostrum, body fluids, and milk. In order to maintain CAE-free herds, dairy-goat breeders often take kids from the dam at the moment of birth . . . never allowing her to touch them . . . and bottle-raise the kids on either pasteurized milk or milk replacer. The virus is directly connected to the production of white blood cells, so any body secretions which contain these cells are potential sources of infection for other members of the herd.
All tests currently available evaluate antibodies. Since not all CAE-infected goats have produced antibodies, "false negatives" are possible. A goat infected with CAE but who has not produced antibodies will test negative but still can shed the virus and infect other goats. If the goat has produced antibodies, it has the virus, will test positive, and will shed it to other herd members.
Complicating the matter even more, it is also possible to have negative kids out of a positive dam. Further, a dam who has given birth to twins can produce one offspring which tests positive and another that tests negative. . . out of the same litter. Kids under six months of age are extremely difficult to test accurately for CAE, so most laboratories recommend waiting until the offspring are eight months to one year old.
CAE testing is done on blood samples drawn from suspect goats either by a veterinarian or by the goat producer.
Several types of CAE tests exist and have varying degrees of accuracy. The ELISA test is generally recognized as the most reliable, displaying a sensitivity to CAE of up to 95.2%; the AGID test has produced results as low as 56%. These figures may be misleading, as many variables can affect the percentage results.
Since many meat goats will be slaughtered young and humans are not at risk, why should meat-goat producers be concerned about having CAE in their herd? There are three very good reasons for maintaining a disease-free herd:
The long-term health of the herd directly affects sales and, therefore, profits. CAE-infected does produce up to 25% less milk than non-infected dams . . . assuming that they have milk at all. In production meat-goat herds, multiple births are desired, so milk production is important in raising marketable kids. Just as mastitis is not a desired condition, so is CAE. Less milk = smaller kids = reduced profit. Producers of breeding stock must offer disease-free herd sires and dams. Buyers will not pay top dollar for infected animals and will often require testing of animals prior to purchasing them. If the producer is shipping out-of-state or out-of-the-country, it is highly likely that these tests are required by animal health regulations. CAE is incurable at this time.
When buying animals to add to your herd, routinely quarantine them for a minimum of two weeks before putting them with your other goats, not just for CAE-testing purposes but also to evaluate them for shipping fever, soremouth, pinkeye, and a host of other illnesses to which goats are susceptible. Increased interest in goats world-wide, and particularly in the United States, means that lots of goats are being shipped every day. Producers who do not quarantine new purchases are asking for problems. Keeping a "closed herd" in an expansive market is difficult, so follow these minimal precautions.
Producers running hundreds or thousands of head obviously cannot afford individual testing. So be alert for knobby knees, and perform random testing annually and before kidding.
Goats can carry CAE their entire lives and never show an outward sign of it. These silently-infected animals can test negative for the antibody until stress or some other factor activates it. Don't let this incurable disease catch you off guard. Follow these simple, inexpensive steps to keep CAE out of your herd , and the entire meat-goat industry will benefit.
Roll farms
Spot Master
The colostrum and milk of a CAE infected doe can be heat-treated and used. Heat treating the colostrum and pastuerizing the milk will kill the CAE virus but not ruin the good stuff in the colostrum.
Colostrum is tricky to do (too hot and it turns to pudding, not hot enough and it doesn't kill the bug) but milk is easy to pastuerize....I use a canner (large pot) w/ water in it, get it hot, put a stainless steel pan inside that w/ the milk in it, get it to 165 degrees and hold for 15 seconds and oila....pastuerized milk. Cool it fast, in a sink of ice water.
Usually, we have enough goat milk, but if I end up w/ someone's cast-offs or get lots of trips and quads, I supplement w/ store bought milk.
If you elect to use replacers, make sure it's a GOOD milk replacer made for goats, not a cheap multi-species formula.
I've found that it's cheaper for me to use whole cow's milk (Vitamin D) from the grocery than it is to use replacer, the 'good stuff' costs me more than whole milk does.
I buy it when it's on sale at the store, and freeze it til I need it.
If you have to buy colostrum, make sure it is colostrum, not just a supplement....the supplement won't have all the good bugs in it needed to develop the proper immunity.
Try Caprine Supply or Hoeggers for 'real' goat colostrum.
We heat treat colostrum in a fry daddy w/ a thermostat...I put water in it, get it to 150 degrees. Microwave the colostrum until it's at 140 degrees (it really does turn to mush if you let it get close to 150) then put it in a metal pan in the 150 degree water (the colostrum usually doesn't get above 145 for me, but the temps may need adjusted on other equipment).
Stir often (every 3-5 minutes) and check the temp often. It has to stay at around 140 degrees for an hour to kill the CAE virus.
I've heard of other folks getting it to 140 dg. then leaving it in a thermos for an hr, but I personally haven't tried it / don't trust it to hold the temp.
Training the doe to a stanchion beats the hay out of tying them up, IMHO...start feeding her on one now, let her get used to you touching her udder. All our does are 'raised' on the stanchion, they get fed there, vaccinated, hoof trims, etc. from babyhood on. Once they're fresh, they hop right up there b/c their used to it.
They don't always accept milking w/ a smile, but at least they're not afraid of the stanchion and get on it willingly.
Whatever you do, don't waffle....if you steal the kids and then change your mind, she might not take them back.
If you let them nurse, she, they and you will be miserable if you try to take them later.
Good luck
Colostrum is tricky to do (too hot and it turns to pudding, not hot enough and it doesn't kill the bug) but milk is easy to pastuerize....I use a canner (large pot) w/ water in it, get it hot, put a stainless steel pan inside that w/ the milk in it, get it to 165 degrees and hold for 15 seconds and oila....pastuerized milk. Cool it fast, in a sink of ice water.
Usually, we have enough goat milk, but if I end up w/ someone's cast-offs or get lots of trips and quads, I supplement w/ store bought milk.
If you elect to use replacers, make sure it's a GOOD milk replacer made for goats, not a cheap multi-species formula.
I've found that it's cheaper for me to use whole cow's milk (Vitamin D) from the grocery than it is to use replacer, the 'good stuff' costs me more than whole milk does.
I buy it when it's on sale at the store, and freeze it til I need it.
If you have to buy colostrum, make sure it is colostrum, not just a supplement....the supplement won't have all the good bugs in it needed to develop the proper immunity.
Try Caprine Supply or Hoeggers for 'real' goat colostrum.
We heat treat colostrum in a fry daddy w/ a thermostat...I put water in it, get it to 150 degrees. Microwave the colostrum until it's at 140 degrees (it really does turn to mush if you let it get close to 150) then put it in a metal pan in the 150 degree water (the colostrum usually doesn't get above 145 for me, but the temps may need adjusted on other equipment).
Stir often (every 3-5 minutes) and check the temp often. It has to stay at around 140 degrees for an hour to kill the CAE virus.
I've heard of other folks getting it to 140 dg. then leaving it in a thermos for an hr, but I personally haven't tried it / don't trust it to hold the temp.
Training the doe to a stanchion beats the hay out of tying them up, IMHO...start feeding her on one now, let her get used to you touching her udder. All our does are 'raised' on the stanchion, they get fed there, vaccinated, hoof trims, etc. from babyhood on. Once they're fresh, they hop right up there b/c their used to it.
They don't always accept milking w/ a smile, but at least they're not afraid of the stanchion and get on it willingly.
Whatever you do, don't waffle....if you steal the kids and then change your mind, she might not take them back.
If you let them nurse, she, they and you will be miserable if you try to take them later.
Good luck
- Thread starter
- #5
Thanks guy these were the answers I was looking for! I knew you could heat the colostrum (very particularly) to make it safe to feed. I just wasn't sure how to milk her. Since we got her a few months ago we have been feeding her and rubbing her down but as soon as we get near her udder all bets are off and shes kicking like crazy.
I was just worried about taking the kid, being unable to milk her because shes kicking and panicking and I thought that maybe like with humans let down might be inhibited with her panicking. Then I would have a kid to raise and no colostrum to feed it.
But it looks like I will keep working with her at getting used to being used to being handled. Look for some frozen colostrum just in case.
Thanks everyone.
I was just worried about taking the kid, being unable to milk her because shes kicking and panicking and I thought that maybe like with humans let down might be inhibited with her panicking. Then I would have a kid to raise and no colostrum to feed it.
But it looks like I will keep working with her at getting used to being used to being handled. Look for some frozen colostrum just in case.
Thanks everyone.
helmstead
Goat Mistress
Just a note - even my seasoned milkers kick me away when I check their udders before they freshen! Usually they don't like me to touch it until they're very near kidding, at which point they'll hunch as if they were letting a kid nurse...and then they settle into milking afterward.
lupinfarm
Loving the herd life
I agree with Helmstead, I would expect them to almost know that when they aren't in milk they don't have to take your crap, not making excuses, but when they're full and in pain from the milk then they're gonna want that relief of being milked be it by baby or by you.
JMHO
JMHO
Roll farms
Spot Master
^ Yeah, what she said.
One of my better milkers kicked like a pony tonight when I checked her udder....but she'll be begging me to milk her in a few days.
One of my better milkers kicked like a pony tonight when I checked her udder....but she'll be begging me to milk her in a few days.
