Southern by Choice's Teaching Moments- Indoor LGD! Badger

[frustratedearthmother]

He sounds incredible... My gal Maddie is somewhat like that. I went out to feed the other day and saw her way out back in the field even though the goats had come up for their evening feeding. I thought it was weird and called her and called her and she totally ignored me. I was too busy to investigate right then, but later I did. I walked out to where she was and right across the fence in the neighbors pasture was a freshly dead raccoon. I have no idea what happened to the raccoon, or why it was there, or if she was the reason for its demise, but she was on guard... even against my wishes.

These dogs are so amazing!

 

[frustratedearthmother]

stoopid double post... ugh

 

[goatgurl]

good for not leo! and i love his name by the way. don't you just love the dogs.

 

[Beekissed]

I love this info, Southern! That's exactly what I needed to know as I train this breed of which I'm only partially familiar. I love the example you've given and I think Not Leo is an amazing dog as well. I'll keep that in mind as this young dog of mine grows and if he seems independent on some things I'll have to trust he is following his instinct instead of just being distracted and disobedient.

Excellent teaching!!!!

 

[Southern by choice]

A couple of things- Cold air moving in and deer season is in.. Deer bucks in full rut= COYOTES! They have been out in full force!
Remember your dogs will be loud during this season. Our dogs are set off so many times at night they are exhausted in the day. They are also wanting to eat a little more - we increase food when we see it is necessary.

Not really a teaching moment but thought I would share a few pics from today... the boys were playing their "LGD games". Keep in mind I have 2 bitches in heat. So hormones are a bit high and tough on the pups. Chunk is 18 months and is their "supervisor". He doesn't let things get too out of hand.

Silver from a young pup has ALWAYS been the one to say "hey- chase me" he gets the games started. He loves it and all the dogs come running.

They all play and practice their skills- Chunk(Male Pyr) watches closely, sometimes plays along but more often makes sure they don't get out of hand.

All was going well til one of them got too "into the game". Chunk gets "PT" off Silver.

Silver gets out but PT is playing too rough (you can see his teeth) Silver is in front looking back like whoa dude- Chunk is on PT- Chunk is a great supervisor and corrects PT.

Chunk decides games are over.
There is a reason we do like to put pups with non parent stock.
1) Parent stock have their favorites which means the strongest pup will always get the favor. Not always great for lower ranking dogs.
2) The "friends" only goes so far. Chunk is a young dog and each pup wants to be his buddy... he always keeps a balance.
3) Parent dogs sometimes will not let other LGD's correct their pups.

These are for @Beekissed
This is MY boy Blue- he is STUBBORN, STRONG WILLED, OBSTINATE, highly intelligent, a lead dog, dominant. He is his mother to the T with the love and arrogance of his sire "D".
I tend to do best with dogs that have these traits. These are the ones I usually keep.
He hangs with Chunk mostly.
I LOVE dogs like this- why? Because I connect with them best and the trust between the dog and me is so great that I know that when it matters, really matters, they will do whatever I ask.

Thought you'd get a kick out of this!
This is Blue- asked him to move several times so we could rake out the spent hay in the loafing area. Oh, he HEARS me... look at his eyes... they say "um nah, I am comfortable". I raked around him. So I did exactly what the LGD's do- I said fine... stay there.
You know LGD's have to let you know it is "their idea" to do something, Not yours- that is their control. I do work with their language and respect their ways in return that dog is truly the most loyal dog ever.

Give me a stubborn dog any day and yes that is Ruby's ear in the pic (The goat-dog)

I wish you could see this close up- it is truly the Nah I don't think so look!

Yeah.... he moved.

 

[Mike CHS]

The difference in training an LGD vs a herding dog will take some changes in thinking on my part.

Both of my sheep herding dogs often thing my flanking commands aren't the right thing to do (and sometimes they are right ) but they have to do it whether they want to or not.

 

[Southern by choice]

The difference in training an LGD vs a herding dog will take some changes in thinking on my part.

Both of my sheep herding dogs often thing my flanking commands aren't the right thing to do (and sometimes they are right ) but they have to do it whether they want to or not.

It is very different. My GSD is well trained. She will "out" immediately, stop on a dime...do whatever whenever she is told. Although anything resembling the "suit" will trigger her. She has made much progress though.

If I raised her like an LGD she would be useless and if I raised an LGD like a GSD it would destroy them.

So different but truly a joy with both kinds of dogs.

 

[Beekissed]

Southern, I have a question for you about Ben. Now, you and I differ in that I don't like defiance of a direct order, even if they have to do it slowly, they should do it. LGD or no, that's the rules for staying here...no belligerence is tolerated here, be it dog or chicken.

Now, I don't give orders willy nilly just to get a thrill of having an animal obey me but just to get through my day, like "move" so I can walk quickly from one point to another without tripping on a dog or chicken. Or "out" when they go somewhere I do not allow them...I'm not one to be fond of a dog that ignores me on such things. I don't have time for brats, nor am I inclined to keep one around, so this pup is being assessed every day for a willingness to work with the program we have already established.

This evening Ben did something I've never seen one of my dogs do and I'm not sure I like it but I may be misunderstanding his purpose. I went in the coop to feed and we've already established he is not allowed in there~out is the command if he tries to follow and he's been doing really well with this up until this evening...usually he will compromise by either standing with his face at the pop door or lying down right outside the pop door.

This evening I didn't leave after feeding and sat down to watch the chickens...this seemed to cause him to be more intent on getting in that coop~ it seemed he was pushing the boundary...he put his head in the door and I repeated the out order. He just looked at me and proceeded to put one paw in the door...I advanced on him and repeated the OUT but more forcefully. He backed up and started barking at me. Now, this dog has rarely ever barked but has done it a few times lately when he is forced to obey a simple command like "out", or "no" when he's trying to jump up....is this a "getting too big for my britches" moment that needs more intense training? I'm inclined to nip it in the bud and I did and he seemed rather cowed by it all but only tomorrow will tell if he pushes that boundary again.

 

[Southern by choice]

Southern, I have a question for you about Ben. Now, you and I differ in that I don't like defiance of a direct order, even if they have to do it slowly, they should do it. LGD or no, that's the rules for staying here...no belligerence is tolerated here, be it dog or chicken.

The thing is it is NOT belligerence as you are interpreting it to be. These dogs are not pet dogs, herding dogs or obedience dogs. They are wired different. Because this is your first experience with them you are basing your evaluations and assessments by means of a whole different type of dog. It is similar to those that know nothing about LGD's and try to use the Volhard method. Absolutely wrong tool for evaluation.

I don't have time for brats, nor am I inclined to keep one around, so this pup is being assessed every day for a willingness to work with the program we have already established.

The behaviors so far is not that one of a "brat" dog. It is simply you not having enough exposure to the breed. Some that have trained other breeds (to include professional and laymen) will read about these dogs but never go and see them on farms talk with trainers and get a real idea of the dogs so they think in their mind that they can train like they have trained all their other dogs.
Of course there are normal things everyone should expect its just knowing what exactly those things are and are not and to what degree and when it is and is not appropriate.

we've already established he is not allowed in there~

He is 3 months- it has not been established. It is still being established and will take patience. As smart as these dogs are they do mature in some areas slowly often making great progress going through a pre-pubescent stage then teenage stage where most people go "what the heck why did he/she suddenly start this again." Like it or not it is the nature of the LGD... part of its development the "off" times will vary in degree. Non LGD people have a hard time wrapping their head around this.

I'm inclined to nip it in the bud and I did and he seemed rather cowed by it all but only tomorrow will tell if he pushes that boundary again.

Always think long term. Right now you do not want him in the coop. I am not understanding that simply because the only thing he has to guard is poultry. So what happens when you have a fox, mink, coon etc get in the henhouse? Why would you not want him in there?

I did not see the interaction and communication in written form is never the whole picture of course so a) he was either cursing you out or b) not understanding why you are staying there so long- what is wrong that he should know about.
Better would have been to invite him in and show him what you are doing in there ... he could watch and usually within a few minutes he would leave.

When a LGD pup stands back and barks at you it is usually expressing it's displeasure with you. It is trying very hard to communicate something to you. It is learning how to understand and effectively communicate back.

Truthfully I cringe when I see that.
Because if the intensive training continues you have a very very high probability of losing the respect of your dog.
The ABSOLUTE worse thing you can do with a LGD Breed is to lose ITS respect. It's not the other way round. When a LGD loses respect he/she will never trust you.
You lose that & you essentially lose the dog.

Over-correction by being to aggressive especially with a pup is a serious offense in the dogs eyes.
These dogs do best with a master that corrects by communicating to the dog. It is gentle and lovingly based. Yes, sometimes a firm correction is needed but 3 months is absolutelty too young for these dogs to really have much intense anything.

The earliest we will even place a dog is 12 weeks and prefer 16.
"Pet" dogs leave homes at 8 weeks.
LGD's should be staying with parent stock til then.

LGD breeds are not like other breeds... they do not respond, behave, think or act like any other breeds on earth.
I have said for many years on this forum "they are like their own species".

I too believe in working with the basics of sit stay and down. Within reason of course. If this is your first experience with an LGD breed there are a few things to just tuck away and keep in mind.
They are not obedience dogs. Overtraining and expecting obedience in all times will lead to issues later. If the dog has good instinct as an LGD then there are many things that will lead to great disappointment and frustration for both you and the dog if you train outside of its nature (overtraining).

Moving with the nature of the dog is very important, moving against the nature of the dog is detrimental. They are HARD WIRED to be independent, think for themselves, make decisions and above all to be trusted. Trusting the dog and moving within it's instincts will make for a better dog.
The dog ends up losing respect for their master when trust isn't given.

Hundreds of years perhaps more (many thoughts on how old some of these breeds are) of guardian instinct cannot be controlled by a master, unless they completely break down the dog and that ruins the dog.

Having experience in obedience breeds as well as LGD breeds I can tell you they are completely different. Most people that have had non LGD breeds often learn things the hard way.
Training a GSD a Dobe a Rottie a Collie etc... the list goes on... is not the way you train a LGD.

This is a difficult concept for many to understand. I just cannot stress this enough.

Think of your dog as a partner. They can do a job you cannot do. You do things they cannot do. Train him and raise him as a partner and the dog will in turn do pretty much whatever is asked of him.

Don't misunderstand my post... the "move" as mentioned above was not the situation as when I carry feed and hay and water in and they may be in my way... if I say move they do. The leeway builds loyalty beyond belief.

Sometimes my corrections are as simple as walking over and saying- "hey- that's not OK" - They are highly intelligent. Connect and speak their language.

Training a LGD to be a LGD really requires that partnership and trust. Pups cannot hear til about 3 weeks of age from that point on everday I lift each pup and tell them what a GREAT dog they will be. I have been laughed at, seen eyes roll etc. Many think to themselves (these are all newbies to the LGD world ) she's wacked. I expect greatness. I get greatness. I don't know how many dogs I have trained over the years... but the LGD's are the most rewarding.

I am a crusader so to speak against the "leave em in the field and don't touch them, or don't teach them" mindset. I loathe it. The shepherds of hundreds of years with these dogs lived on the mountainsides with the dogs... developed a strong bond. They had to trust and rely on the dogs as they moved with them. That no touch philosophy started here in the States. So I definitely advocate for working with the LGD. But allowing them to be what they are does require a different set of training skills.

Our dogs have prevented theft, told us when a doe kidded, told us when a doe was in distress, told us when a goat was hung up in a tree, prevented a giant New zealand Buck from killing one of our other bucks by keeping it off the goat while the goat was under the fence and we were alerted by the dogs that something was wrong. They have cleaned off kids that we couldn't get too quick enough, alerted us when a baby goat was drowning in a trough, when we had a goat hung up and was strangling and the list goes on.

I share that to say they are worth their weight in gold and then some. Embrace the differentness ( new word ) . Allow the dog to think and it will always do the right thing when necessary.

As you know I am very passionate about these dogs and always want to support success and bring understanding to new LGD owners. Breaks my heart to see so many shot in the head when they "don't work out", rehomed after damage was done, in shelters slated for euthanasia.
I don't believe you are "giving orders willy nilly just to get a thrill of having an animal obey me"... you seem to really want to do the right things and you care.
I hope this is an encouragement to you as you continue in your training with Ben.

 

[Beekissed]

It is and I so value your input and direction!!! I'm getting ready to make a run to town but when I get back I'll elaborate on why he's not allowed in the coop right now and other meanings behind my methods/needs. I so badly want to understand this pup and not mess him up with my prior training methods that work very well with Labs and Lab mix dogs but are not expected to much fit this different breed of cat, so to speak.

I'm learning at the foot of the master and await your teachings!