Spay/neuter

[samssimonsays]

That is crappy.

 

[Bunnylady]

$10 altered/$20 intact, cats and dogs. We don't 'zactly have a leash law, but if your dog/cat has a litter and animal control finds out about it, you have a limited amount of time after the birth to obtain a "breeding permit," or you get fined.

I have had unaltered female dogs, and not having a roofed, chain-link kennel, found it impossible to prevent either them getting out or male dogs from getting in (one female destroyed a large cage that had on previous occasions been enough to contain a rather frantic goat). Over the years, I have regrettably had to have several (found abandoned as puppies) female dogs spayed while pregnant rather than allow them to produce yet more mixed-breed-really-no-purpose-but-pets dogs. Call me lazy, or slack or what you will, but dealing with the issues of a female in heat just wasn't worth the extra expense and hassle to me.

 

[misfitmorgan]

We have no noise ordinance or leash law either. We also have documented cases where critters have broken into people property and gotten something knocked up and the critter that broke in's owner has always shown to be liable...so legally for my area your dad made the right legal choice. We also have a law that you have to fence animals out of your property though...mostly pertains to livestock. If you dont want my livestock on your property then you have to fence your property off but i dont need too...thank you range laws. Though to keep happy neighbors we try to keep critters on our own property.

 

[Bruce]

Yeah there is something wrong with "must protect yourself from other people's animals".

 

[NH homesteader]

Well yes. But for people who buy land in the middle of farm land that's been established for eons... Maybe it's nice to have the liability on the newbie. There are places in the country where animals can roam free and hey I can appreciate that.

I would never not secure my animals, BTW. Just playing devils advocate

 

[norseofcourse]

In my county dog licenses are $18 per dog, double after January 31, and no discount for altered animals.

I volunteered many years in animal rescue. IMHO, around here, increased altering, and altering at young ages, helped with the overpopulation problem tremendously. Although personally I think 6 weeks would be too young (the typical vet/rescue was/is altering between 2 and 3 months). Also IMHO, the average pet owner in my area is too irresponsible to have an unaltered animal. Way too many 'oops' litters, animals running loose, and poorly educated owners with outdated beliefs (I actually had someone call and say his purebred male Pit had gotten a dog of another breed pregnant, and he wondered how long it would be before his dog could 'breed pure' again. I soooo wanted to tell him 'never'....).

I don't remember which thread it was on, but someone asked if there was so much more spaying/neutering because of doing it at earlier ages, why do there seem to be so many more animals looking for homes? In my area, again IMHO, it's because increased spaying/neutering coincided with the trend towards 'no-kill' rescues. In the last 20 years, over a dozen rescue groups started up, and because they were all 'no-kill', they quickly filled up and stayed full. So anyone needing to find a new home for their dog/cat/kittens/puppies would call all these groups and constantly get told 'sorry, we're full'. The more desirable ones would be more likely to get into rescue, or they sometimes got in through volunteer connections. Eventually even the county pound got on the no-kill bandwagon, which is not entirely bad, as it means they are getting fewer dogs through their system, and they have cage space to keep them longer to find homes.

It's difficult to have a civil spay-neuter discussion, this is a good thread. People often feel very strongly on both sides. Being involved in animal rescues, I tend to come down more on the side of pro-altering. Before the early age altering became common, there didn't seem to be much research on aspects of altering - what age was optimum? Were there differences depending on gender? On breed? Did a female actually need to go through a heat, or have a litter, to 'get her hormones in order'? People believed certain ways, but based on feelings, not research. Seems there has been more research done on such subjects lately, but honestly I haven't had the time or need to get into studying it.

It's nearly midnight, so I'll end here and hope my post is somewhat coherent...

 

[promiseacres]

I have to agree with Norse too many uneducated (some really don't want to be educated ) people out there. Altering dogs and cats is really best because of it. Personally I won't have an unaltered dog or cat. I am not against responsible breeders of either but it's a huge commitment I choose not to make. Does early altering cause cancer?...would lean that whatever is causing it in humans might just be a source.
We do have a leash law in Indiana and recently got my lifetime permit to carry. While wild predators exist usually it's someone precious pet that causes problems.

 

[Calendula]

I agree that too many people are uneducated, myself included. Does anyone have links or advice about dog breeding and keeping unaltered dogs? I would prefer to not alter my dogs in the future and possibly breed them (responsibly, of course!) but a quick Google search brought up nonsense and an AKC link that had very little helpful information.
That is, if I can even find breeders that don't have contracts specifying that you have to neuter and spay.

As for the topic at hand, I found an article at some point that had information regarding several experiments find with several different breeds of dogs regarding spaying/neutering. The unaltered dogs led longer, happier lives while the altered dogs were more prone to disease and anxiety, particularly thunderstorm anxiety. It said that the best age to fix a dog was after six years because of the affect of hormones that they received.
In my own experience, I have only owned two dogs. One was a chocolate Lab that we kept unaltered for six years before finally fixing her. She lived until fourteen without any major issues.
My other dog was fixed soon after we got him and his balls dropped. I want to say about four or five months? Now, he did have some separation anxiety but no fear of thunderstorms in the least bit. After he was fixed, HORRIBLE separation anxiety. And then at some point, he developed thunderstorm anxiety! Maybe it's something that shows up later in their life, but I somehow highly doubt it.

 

[samssimonsays]

We had an oops litter with our female and male as many of you followed. She had gone through two prior heats with zero issues and then all of a sudden she nearly broke my fingers to get to our male, we kept them separate and they would howl and scream for each other which is totally normal but the male also marked everything in the house and became a little too possessive after that point. We were not irrisponsoble as we had been doing everything correct. Circumstances changed and the dong became dead set she would be getting to the male. For us, with her and that specific male we were better off to neuter him. He quit marking. He also went back to being ok when any other dog approached her. He went back to being himself pre breeding. Some dogs it is in their favor to spay and neuter and I do agree that most people should as they are clueless or want to make a buck off of puppies. We requested the oops litter we had be spayed and neutered due to them being crosses with herding and lgd breeds. one owner did not but she is able to handle it responsibly. Two of the females that I know of became extra possessive of "their" things and were much more on the dominant side that lead to uneasyness in the home with the other dogs. Once spayed, everything evened out and normalcy was achieved. Two of the males became much easier to handle and mellowed in their anxiety (car rides were bad for one and separation for another) and they are much more even dogs. some dogs it is in their favor and I feel it should be done. Others, there is no need. I grew up with a collie who was never altered. We had wanted to breed her but she was dominant so never did. She didn't get spayed until age ten when she ended up with a uterine infection which we were told was common in older dogs. I also grew up with a mini weener dog. She is 14 now? And still not spayed. One get wanted to spay her and remove the mamary tumors from her as well but for a 7 pound dog that old we felt it was more of a risk than a possitive and my mom was made to feel like she didnt want her dog to live a happy healthy life when she left there..... She's 14,will spraying really make her live that much longer? No, it won't. We still get cards in the mail stating Stella is over due and to call and make an appointment to get her spayed from our Vet. they can waste the time and money to ship those all they want.

 

[Southern by choice]

It's difficult to have a civil spay-neuter discussion, this is a good thread. People often feel very strongly on both sides. Being involved in animal rescues, I tend to come down more on the side of pro-altering.

To me it is a matter of HOW it is being done. The way it is done here has horrible effects on the animals. That is what is infuriating.

Not too long ago there was a vet (I think Alabama) she did lots of spay/neuters especially for shelter animals or those that got animals for the shelter. Her procedure was different. It was FASTER, SAFER, and LESS EXPENSIVE! She ended up before the vet medical board.
Why?
Basically all the other vets were pissed because she was "undercutting" them. Yep, that was part of the complaint. I forget what they called it ... price undercutting or something or other. The board actually sent out a team to see her procedure. They also concluded it was faster and safer etc.... however that was NOT the procedure she was taught in vet school so they had a problem with it.

As far as uneducated and people not responsible enough to have intact animals... 2 sides to look at here.
Look at all the uneducated people that know nothing about the disastrous health effects of spay and neuter (referring to the desexing way that we do here in the states). I also find it disturbing that so many look at a person and remarks made and think they are obviously to uneducated to get it.
Not so.
With anything there are things we are all ignorant about... until we become educated about that particular subject.

If we look on this forum and how many people get goats or sheep and are new and don't know much... they come here and lots of people walk them along, share with them, teach them, educate them. It is no different with dogs. Yet who is taking the time? Rarely anyone unless you are passionate about it.

People who really care about the spay & Neuter programs should be demanding better ways and safer and not the desexing as we do here. It is appalling that we care so much about unwanted litters yet we care nothing of the dogs health lifelong. Dogs in shelters are not all because of unwanted puppies. Many dogs are nutjobs plain and simple. Shelters used to be far better IMO years ago. Dogs were allowed to be kept at the shelters and put up for adoption if they met certain criteria. With all the no kill nonsense we have serious problems. There really are dogs that should be put down. If you notice people adopting from the shelters must sign waivers. These waivers protect the shelters from getting sued.

All this info has been there but those who over the years spoke up were hushed, quieted, and suppressed. I am referring to veterinarians here, not laymen.

There are more vets starting to stand up now and more studies are being done.

Even with the current way we do spays here now. Procedure called for the cervix to be removed as well, yet that went by the wayside.

Leaving the ovaries and removing the uterus and cervix would allow for proper body balance.

The unaltered dogs led longer, happier lives while the altered dogs were more prone to disease and anxiety, particularly thunderstorm anxiety.

Yes, that is correct.
Also they found this to be the case in MALE dogs and it didn't matter at what age they were neutered! young or older had no baring. Fear of thunderstorm and anxiety developed after castration. CASTRATION is the key here.
This is very critical info for LGD owners especially.

There are also lots of myths around spay/neuter.

As far as temperament and aggression-
Females tend to become MORE aggressive after spay
Males do not lose their aggression if they are an aggressive dog.
It is not a cure all for marking (lifting leg) males. Most male dogs will mark if a female is in heat... I am referring to males that mark constantly
Females have more bladder issues when spayed especially when young.

There is a whole long list.